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Honest question It has been cited, and now appears to be materializing, that both 45V and the DOE loan, are purpously being delayed until the upcoming Presidential election in November. Can anyone please explain to me the logic behind that decision/strategy? I personally cannot think of a single good reason to do so.
I guess timing is everything and we were ahead of the curve and things move slower than expected in life and then before you know it things have changed. You can be a pioneer and still lose out to a new upstart with a better mousetrap or an old company that is wiser with deep pockets. Andy was way too aggressive and blew a huge wad of cash without knowing the regulatory hurdles and how slow things would move.
Collectively Fuel Cell Stocks are at ALL TIME LOWS !
But Hydrogen Stocks are at ALL TIME HIGHS !
You guys picked the WRONG HORSE.
WTM - NKLA is at ALL TIME LOWS !
Another Hydrogen FAIL.
What are Hydrogen Fuel Cell Class 8 Trucks & Nikola's Biggest Challenges
Cars and Culture with Jason Stein
30.7K subscribers
Posted Sep 23, 2024
Steve Girsky, CEO of Nikola Corporation, talks about some of Nikola's biggest challenges and why hydrogen fuel is a viable option for heavier vehicles.
Watch the FULL EPISODE here
4,000 seems awful light....i saw many estimates that said 20,000 drops are in 1 liter...one said 10,000...i didnt see any that were less than those...other than yours...
"so a Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck would release about one drop of water every foot traveled"
assuming one can drive around non-stop...but in reality, there are stoplights, stop signs and many other reasons why vehicles have to come to a stop for 30 seconds or more...if you have 10 or 20 fcev constantly stopping at every red light all around a city for 30 seconds or more, all day and all night, thats going to cause a whole lot more water on the streets than you are anticipating...
Hi All : PLUG got the hiring sign out on the website for St. Gabriel, LA
Global hydrogen industry reports $75 billion in committed capital but climate targets at stake due to project delays
Sep 17, 2024
https://hydrogencouncil.com/en/global-hydrogen-industry-reports-75-billion-in-committed-capital-but-climate-targets-at-stake-due-to-project-delays/
California Hydrogen Business Council
7,916 followers
5 hours ago
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/california-hydrogen-business-council_hydrogen-hydrogenprojects-decarbonization-activity-7244382582765678592-fWj8/
The Hydrogen Council has published the Hydrogen Insights 2024 report and found significant progress has been made in the sector, with $75 billion in committed capital and a growing number of advanced projects.
The report had four main findings:
- Investments: Seven-fold increase in capital committed to hydrogen projects reaching FID in the past 4 years.
- Growing Project Maturity: Clear shift from announcements to advanced project stages.
- Navigating Uncertainty: Regulatory decisions and policy, or lack thereof, create challenges.
- Moving Forward: To accelerate decarbonization, an 8-fold increase of investments in hydrogen is required until 2030, compared to the current investment of USD $75bn past FID. Addressing this challenge calls for a joint effort by government and industry.
Banger - The Germany section was Huge, fully 1/3 of the exhibition.
Bosch likes to do things their own way, and felt they would have been diluted .
And don't just blame Sanjay and Twiggy. Marsh is the CEO and he should have acted as the CEO .
Andy's incompetence is why PLUG is circling the Toilet.
Bosch I would have considered as they are in the valves and monitoring technologies for gases as well as the fuel cells.
I hope it is a sign that for now PLUG Is being very picky as to what they spend their marketing budgets on.
I assume they were there last year and would start to be concerned if not there next year - but if they are still in the producing business then I will be very happy.
As you keep pointing out they have short term issues that need $$ to be resolved. Sanjay ( and Twiggy) talked Andy into being too greedy in their strategy, could have started small and funded things more easily. [Not that Andy needed too much encouragement]
Banger - None of those you listed are bulk Hydrogen producers.
Even Olin was there as a Hydrogen producer.
The only Hydrogen producer not visible in any way was PLUG.
So Jack
Were other hydrogen players there such as :
Bosch?
Ballard?
Bloom?
I know PLUG as a vertically integrated company covers more of the infrastructure for gas but would hope Bosch at least was present.
As a follow up to my previous post I found the following information, 1 liter or 1 kg water = 4,000 drops (see reference below). In my previous post I calculated that a Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck releases 1 kg water per mile driven. From the information below, one liter of water or 1 kg of water is 4,000 drops, so a Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck would release about one drop of water every foot traveled, not enough to be a concern for causing roads to freeze in the winter in northern regions, in my opinion.
By these drip estimates: One gallon = 15,140 drips. One liter = 4,000 drips. Source https://water.usgs.gov/edu/activity-drip.html
B_B - The big difference is that a hydrogen vehicle "exhales" much more water vapor than a human.
It is, after all, warm as it leaves the exhaust and disperses in the air in the same way as water vapor from human exhalation.
Hydrogen Cars in Winter: Will Exhaust Cause Roadway Ice?
June 1, 2024 6 By John Max
…
will ice buildup occur in a cold water vapor exhaust system or will it lead to sheet of ice forming on roadways?
Experts aren’t concerned
Those with experience with hydrogen fuel cells aren’t concerned about this issue, and there are many reasons for this. The first is that they know that conventional gasoline-powered internal combustion engines already produce a certain amount of water vapor in their emissions, and this is not a problem in those systems.
The next is that those familiar with fuel cells understand the volume of water vapor that is being produced by the systems. Unless the exhaust pipe for the water vapor were to be pointed directly down at the road and positioned close to the road surface – a design that is neither practical nor under consideration by any known vehicle manufacturer – then it won’t end up on the pavement in any meaningful way. It is, after all, warm as it leaves the exhaust and disperses in the air in the same way as water vapor from human exhalation.
…
https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-cars-exhaust-roadway-ice/8565024/
Not PLUG Related :
But Linde, Air Products and Air Liquide are all trade at or close to their ALL TIME HIGHS.
LINDE is one of the least shorted stocks in the world.
PLUG is in the Top Ten MOST Shorted stocks in the world.
IGM - Talk about leaving an ocean liner for a leaky Sun Fish.
PLUG is a very Broken Company and a very Broken Stock. At the Hydrogen conference last week, no one was painting a Rosey picture for Plug. The fact that PLUG was MIA spoke volumes.
It will take a great many skills and a new CFO to fix all that is broken at Plug, and I doubt Fullerton is a miracle worker. I have to question anyone who thinks they have management talent and moves to Latham, NY.
A Big Fish in a Dry Pond.
For now I am waiting on the DOE Dough. If we get No DOE Dough, it's game over for Plug.
WTM - Water Vapor, even heated water vapor, condenses into water / puddles as it cools, and even more so in winter/cold climes.
Fortunately we will never see the clouds and fog a rush hour of hydrogen cars would produce on a cold winter's morning.
Steve, I've often wondered the same. I believe there is a simple solution to this issue, use the excess heat from fuel cells to vaporize the water exhaust into water vapor, and thus a non-issue. It obviously costs time and money to engineer it into FCEV vehicles, and I'm not sure if it is done or not. The video of the hydrogen FCEV bus idling and forming a puddle of water from the exhaust, would indicate that these buses are not doing so, and that would be a problem in the winter time in northern places where the exhaust water would freeze. What I'm not sure about, is if that bus while on route would be spilling enough water to be a concern.
I've never done the calculation, but it could go something like this. A Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck travels about 8 miles on one kilogram of hydrogen, and one kilogram of hydrogen when consumed in a fuel cell would produce 9 kilograms of water (based on formula for water H2O, atomic mass for H = 1, and O = 16). So a Nikola truck would spill 9 kgs of water every 8 miles, or just over 1 kg of water per mile. Is that a lot or not, that's the part I don't know. How many drops of water per foot of road?
Steve - We studied the costs / economics of New Builds
Interesting, when we studied GSE's for a major manufacturer, battery electric beat hydrogen even when there was onsite hydrogen dispensers.
I had a question about water emission. What happens in the winter when these freeze on streets and you have ice patches? Would they cause a road hazard or need salt to melt on the roads?
Thing is Jack, Amazon already has the fueling sites there. As part of their 'Go Green" movement H2 still fits right in. I do not know how long an H2 robot would last before refueling versus a robot and the time it would take assuming both were automatically filled but assume it would be like forklifts and save time. Not doubting your study, but there could be other reasons and goals they are trying to obtain.
Fullerton has worked at very profitable and well run companies, with Amazon having almost unlimited resources...its almost hard to not do well under those circumstances...
with plug, hes going to have his work cut out for him...he will be dealing with a poorly run company with limited resources and almost no money...these are things he is totally unfamiliar with...
maybe he will do well...maybe he wont...too hard to say either way...but to point to his success at Amazon and think he can do well at Plug because of it?...i think a monkey could well at Amazon...
JB your thoughts and mine are the same when pertaining to Andy Marsh...what are your thoughts of Dean Fullerton as CEO of Plug??
Good NEWS : Buy This Hydrogen Stock. Best In Breed
Sorry, Nothing to do with PLUG :
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4152297-overweight-quality-stocks-with-positive-eps-revision-ms?mailingid=36827774&messageid=2900&serial=36827774.28176&source=email_2900&utm_campaign=rta-stock-news&utm_content=link-3&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha&utm_term=36827774.28176
SEPTA to try out hydrogen fuel cell buses as early as this fall
The 10-bus pilot is part of the agency's efforts to transition to a climate-friendly fleet. But it has attracted criticism from some environmentalists.
By Sophia Schmidt September 23, 2024
...
SEPTA’s 10 hydrogen buses will be fueled at the Midvale station in Nicetown. SEPTA signed a three-year contract for hydrogen from Plug Power, which opened a liquid green hydrogen production plant in Georgia this year. The fueler, its maintenance and three years worth of fuel delivery will cost SEPTA over $5.6 million.
...
https://stocktwits.com/B_B_/message/586824892
JB, thank you for the detailed and insightful response.
WTM - We did the original study in early 2023 for two major distribution centers our client was building (one on each coast).
Note : At that time, we did recommend fuel cells for the forklifts/heavy indoor material handling.
This year (first half of 2024) we updated and revised our study with updated pricing, for the five New Centers they are building. It is very difficult to make an economic case for hydrogen vs electricity in most applications. This is why Walmart and Home Depot still use batteries in their store forklifts. It is one third to one fifth the cost of hydrogen/fuel cells.
Note : The Comparative economics were even more skewed in 2024, but we still recommended fuel cells for indoor material handling.
JB, when was that "comprehensive study on material handling robotics" done?
JB, William is correct, the article mentions Plug Power.
Quote "SEPTA signed a three-year contract for hydrogen from Plug Power, which opened a liquid green hydrogen production plant in Georgia this year. The fueler, its maintenance and three years worth of fuel delivery will cost SEPTA over $5.6 million."
Link https://fuelcellsworks.com/2024/09/23/fuel-cells/septa-to-try-out-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-as-early-as-this-fall
- less warehouse space
- less vehicles/units
- refueled in just a few minutes
- require less maintenance
- more time in operation and less time out of service
- can carry more weight
- performance does not degrade in low temperature
- cost-effective
WTM - Nothing in that dated news will affect PLUG's share price. I read that story weeks ago, Bill's "news" is just a rehash .
PLUG does not make green hydrogen in the Philly area, and by the time there are hundreds of hydrogen busses, PLUG will be long gone.
WTM - How long can PLUG last if there is NO DOE DOUGH ?
JB, when was the study you referred to in your post performed?
Keep reading PLUG has a 5.6 millions contract to suppy the Fuel for the Buses
JB, I disagree. At a minimum, could be a potential Plug customer for green hydrogen. If not now, perhaps in the future, as they could potentially replace hundreds of diesel buses, with hydrogen buses.
Hi All this one may have already been posted : https://fuelcellsworks.com/2024/09/23/fuel-cells/septa-to-try-out-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-as-early-as-this-fall
B_B - Humans are just one component .
Run the numbers using real world variables and let us know if you can beat 3 to 1.
5 September 2024: the latest of which allows for fully automated refuelling
Jun 20, 2024: Notice in the BMW photo, a human.
Sorry Boys - My firm did a comprehensive study on material handling robotics for a major client, and humans and hydrogen can't compete .... Not Even Close.
Although I can't disclosure all of the details (a confidential study), when you add in the cost of an automated hydrogen dispenser, storage and most importantly the cost of any color hydrogen ; Fuel cells cannot compete with rechargeable batteries.
Steve - You don't need one dock for every robot . Think 4-5 robots per docking/recharge station, because these units recharge faster than they discharge.
Notice in the BMW photo, a human. No humans means electric power is the only opex, and electric power is one fifth the cost of hydrogen.
Good luck with your hydrogen Fuel Cell Roomba's and let me know when PLUG sells one.
ANOTHER MULAG.
wrong Jack. If you have 1000 robots needed and only 500 working at a time you might only need, say 750 refueling at different times to do the same work. Therefore, you save space and cost of the robots. The H2 robots may last longer and have shorter refuel times like do forklifts. There just maybe an economic answer here that we are not seeing.
there are five intralogistics hydrogen refuelling stations, the latest of which allows for fully automated refuelling
For BMW, hydrogen is a key component in tomorrow's mobility. It is also an exciting research journey that began 45 years ago – and has now reached a significant stage. BMW can reflect on innovative milestones, current developments, and opportunities for the future.
5 September 2024
...
For many years, hydrogen has been used as an energy source in BMW factory logistics. In 2013, Germany’s first indoor hydrogen refuelling station was built on the Leipzig site. Forklift trucks and tugger trains for intralogistics are refuelled there. More than 10 years later, the Leipzig factory had the largest fleet in Germany with over 130 fuel cell-powered industrial trucks. On the factory premises, there are five intralogistics hydrogen refuelling stations, the latest of which allows for fully automated refuelling. The Leipzig factory is also the first automotive factory in the world to pilot a newly developed burner technology in its paint shop. This allows green hydrogen to be used in addition to natural gas.
In logistics beyond the factory gates, BMW is also working with partners to test the use of hydrogen to decarbonise transport logistics and is involved in projects such as H2HAUL (development and piloting of fuel cell trucks) and HyCET (testing of hydrogen trucks with combustion engines in transport logistics).
https://www.bmw.com/en/electric-future/hydrogen-milestones-pioneering-spirit-for-the-mobility-of-the-future.html
JB, but robots don't do work while recharging the batteries, so speed in recharging/refueling is important. Thus, for example, you would need more robots to do the same amount of work as hydrogen fuel cell robots with autonomous refueling capability. Furthermore, you also need to use a lot more valuable indoor space for the recharging infrastructure to recharge the idle robots, which are in the thousands in the case of Amazon.
WTM - Speed of refueling is not an advantage.
It is for forklifts because the savings is no idle labor during refueling.
There is no human labor with robots so there is No Savings / Benefits. That's why we use robots in the first place.
JB, UK, BB, you just reminded me of the other advantage for hydrogen power robots, speed of refueling. Thus, you don't need as many robots, and you don't need as much valuable space tied up in the battery recharging infrastructure.
However, again, they would need to have the autonomous refueling capability in order to be feasible to Amazon, as they have thousands of them.
Plug is proud to be a longtime fuel cell supplier to BMW as they work toward their sustainability goals using #greenhydrogen. https://t.co/dYeqvQziEW
— Plug Power Inc. (@PlugPowerInc) June 20, 2024
They did try that years ago when PLUG was also looking at automated refueling capabilities
These robots like your domestic iRobots just return to base to recharge and they have sufficient capacity to handle the downtime.
Now what could be happening is that Amazon could buy into the Texas Hydrogen production plant in order to guarantee its supply. or form a JV to speed up PLUGS production plants given the govt loan guarantee doesnt seem to be meeting the banks requirements (or vice versa). Alternatively doing more on site generation and reducing PLGS daily requirements. That may help comoditize the deployment of 1 MW Electolysers and associated storage BOP
WTM - The KIVA robots are battery electric and can return on their own to docking / charging stations to recharge. Hydrogen fuel cells bring no advantage .
While one robot is working another is charging .
BB, I was also wondering if Amazon might be considering converting the robots they use in material handling from batteries to hydrogen power, with the advantage of better performance and/or longer duration (due to higher power density for hydrogen). Although, they would need to be refueled autonomously, a technology that Plug Power has been working on for the refueling station application. Perhaps the same technology applies directly to robots and/or with some minor modifications.
B_B - Do KIVA robots use fuel cells ?
I see nothing about Fuel Cells or Hydrogen in the Kiva information.
Your post is misleading.
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Page is currently being updated - watch for more information about their recent acquisitions and competitors
Welcome to Plug Power
http://www.plugpower.com/Home.aspx
Plug Power is the leading provider of clean hydrogen and zero-emission fuel cell solutions that are both cost-effective and reliable.
In 2020/21 Plug Power cemented two major partnerships
https://www.plugpower.com/plug-power-and-sk-group-partnership/
https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2021/Groupe-Renault--Plug-Power-Join-Forces-to-Become-Leader-in-Hydrogen-LCV/default.aspx
The architect of modern hydrogen and fuel cell technology, Plug Power is the innovator that has taken hydrogen and fuel cell technology from concept to commercialization. Plug Power has revolutionized the material handling industry with its full-service GenKey solution, which is designed to increase productivity, lower operating costs and reduce carbon footprints in a reliable, cost-effective way. The Company’s GenKey solution couples together all the necessary elements to power, fuel and serve a customer. With proven hydrogen and fuel cell products, Plug Power replaces lead-acid batteries to power electric industrial vehicles, such as the lift trucks customers use in their distribution centers.
Extending its reach into the on-road electric vehicle market, Plug Power’s ProGen platform of modular fuel cell engines empowers OEMs and system integrators to rapidly adopt hydrogen fuel cell technology. ProGen engines are proven today, with thousands in service, supporting some of the most rugged operations in the world. Plug Power is the partner that customers trust to take their businesses into the future.
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