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There is a document at the SEC EDGAR specifically stating that the stock was revoked. No ambiguity about it. The stock is now Monopoly money.
Moller may have said that their stock was only delisted. They also said lots of other provably false things in the past. Like the fact that the planned test flight in October 2011 was cancelled because too many people wanted to come and see it (rather than because they didn't have anything close to a flyable vehicle to demonstrate). Or the fact that they have provisional orders for millions of engines (despite having had this order backlog for over a decade, and never actually selling any engines). Or saying that they would make every effort to prevent the stock being revoked, when after the fact it's clear that they didn't do anything. Or that they had this amazing deal to invest 250 million dollars in the company from PSC (despite the deal relying on the revaluation of the now worthless Zimbabwe dollar).
It's not just that Moller regularly lies (although they do). It's also that it isn't even **good** lying.
Of course, I know the response. "This time is different".
rwandrw, the company and the SEC say the stock is Revoked;
https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0000871344&owner=exclude&count=40
Good luck
No I do not get the newsletters. It appears we are closing in on their anticipated deadline, I hope no news so far is good news. I am still upset MLER was Dlisted because if any actual signed agreements were announced than the stock probably would of responded a little. Now with the Dlist it could be years or longer to bring it back. I hope he doesn’t screw his shareholders and claim chapter 11
Do you get FM or MI newsletter? It is on the FM blog from the FM CEO he lists what he wanted to accomplish over 9 days in India and got them all target date was 90 days (Ish) so 11Nov ... Dr Moller also said the had 4 million coming in new money to help FM get to production
you are mistaken, it was delisted not revoked, if i so wanted i could exchange my MI shares for FM shares Per the MI CEO, Are you one the newsletter list?
rwandrw, MLER was revoked. Nobody that held that stock would receive anything from a reincarnation. EOM
Remind me again when was that date they were supposed to make the announcement?
Hold them since they will get 5 or 30% of any FM motor sale, seems FM Is on a roll ,we will know shortly if they really do the deal or just more endless miss management.
They have stated at some point they will do an IPO but they are not planning anything soon
Nope.
Moller International is purely entertainment for me.
I had doubts when I first read about them more than sixteen years ago. And subsequent events have more than justified that initial skepticism.
The entertainment value decreased a bit when Jeff disappeared, but it still has its moments.
If I still had shares, I would have written them off as a bad investment and walked away.
Your 'loser either way' comment is spot on.
Freedom Motors can bring in new faces with impressive resumes all they want, but the core management style remains the same as it did with Moller International. And look how that turned out. Remember all those impressive resumes from the 'Thorntail' guys? Remember how the fanboys looked at those resumes and said 'this time is different'. Remember? Remember when Ed de Reyes was appointed to be the company test pilot and also liaison with the FAA? Remember? Remember how the fanboys said 'this time is different'?
Resumes mean nothing if the man really holding the steering wheel is heading straight for a brick wall.
In the end Freedom Motors will fail and they will blame 'lack of funding' for their downfall just like Moller did now with the latest newsletter regarding Moller International. Anybody with a brain (unlike fanboys) that does a thorough root cause analysis will see that 'lack of funding' isn't the root cause for Moller International's downfall. The root cause is Paul Moller and his questionable business practices. Not only in obtaining funding, but also utilizing funds.
I stand by my belief that if Moller had chosen one vehicle to bring to market things would have been different. Maybe not successful, but different. Constantly switching tracks on which vehicle you want to develop while you have no income stream is suicide. Business Management 101 stuff.
Moller is a tinkerer and he used investors money like he would have used a grant in his academia days. He used those investments to tinker and when the money ran out, the money ran out.
Fanboys shouldn't fool themselves into thinking that just because Freedom Motors has a CEO called Dr Paluru (or whoever he is) that Paul Moller isn't calling the shots. Of course he is.
LOL, I’m assuming you do not have any shares
Well, if you have certificates, you could use them for lining a birdcage.
I'm sure they're printed on the wrong kind of paper, which excludes toilet paper.
What would you do if you had shares in MLER? It seems like it’s a loser either way
Why would Freedom Motors want to go public?
That would mean... <gasp> having to report results to the SEC, and have accountants, and all that awful stuff.
I'm sure that they're having a lot more fun with being a private company, where you can just make up your results, arbitrarily decide what your share price is, and there aren't any bad people from the SEC spoiling everything.
Now that Moller International has been revoked/delisted, it can now be a zombie corporation, and remain undead forever!
Is FM going to go public? What’s everyone’s take on that?
NOT revoked CEO newsletter
MOLLER INTERNATIONAL
Moller International (MI) was delisted as anticipated in my last Newsletter. As President of MI, I apologize for being unable to raise the necessary capital to maintain MI as a public company. Raising capital for the development of a rotary engine proved to be easier than for a flying car (personal air vehicle or PAV). Consequently, the value of MI shares has continued to decline, while the value of Freedom Motors (FM) shares has remained stable. The number of MI shareholders who stated that they wanted to exchange their shares for FM shares was much larger than expected. This is very important for those who do exchange shares because as FM becomes a major shareholder in MI, exchangers will indirectly remain MI stockholders.
Questions that have been asked by MI shareholders include:
Question 1: Are my MI shares now worthless?
Answer: No, otherwise FM would not be discussing an exchange of shares. However, it is reasonable to assume that MI alone may continue to have difficulty raising enough capital to achieve FAA certification of its Skycar® and Neuera. To put into production and FAA certify both the aircraft and manufacturing facility of a conventional two-passenger airplane like the ICON can cost over $100 million and take many years to achieve. Needless to say, a very unconventional aircraft like the Skycar® could cost more and take longer.
Question 2: What was the last share price at which FM shares were sold and what is its market cap?
Answer: FM sold 70,667 shares at $1.50 per share resulting in a market cap of $62,250,000. In a recently signed agreement an investor will acquire over 4 million shares at a higher share price. This will double the FM market cap.
Question 3: What was the FAA’s objection to certifying the Skycar®?
Answer: The FAA did not object. The problem for MI was raising the capital required to produce and certify the Skycar® along with the time it might take to become FAA certified. This, and the over $22 million in debt, deterred potential investors.
Question 4: How many shares have been issued by MI?
Answer: 150 million shares were authorized and have been issued. MI is seeking authorization to sell another 150 million shares in order to provide 55 million shares to shareholders who have exercised options. The remaining 95 million shares will be available to raise capital should that become possible.
Question 5: Should I convert my MI shares to FM shares?
Answer: This must remain your personal decision. If you want to convert, but have reservations, you should keep some of your shares. The officers of MI and FM support this exchange; however, it must be approved by the SEC, which will take some time. During this period, you will be made aware of any developments before choosing to participate in this one hundred for one share exchange. Providing Freedom Motors with the number of shares you wish to convert will continue to be treated as an expression of interest that you can change at any time until a final agreement is signed between you and FM.
If you go to the Moller Skycar facebook page, you will see someone shared an article on the Porsche/Boeing flying car plans. The very first person who commented quoted Moller's white paper.
Nah, Jeff will not re-appear. Even if he does, I bet his position will be in the vicinity of 'It doesn't matter. Paul will never let us down. Soon to the moon! Any day now! This time is different.'.
But yeah, I would also love to hear from him and also some of the other fanboys who used to be so smug.
Who is that person you are referring too? And where is Jeff, I’d like to hear what he had to say about the D list
Hahaha! And there fanboys be fanboys.
Someone shared an article of the Porsche/Boeing flying car plans on the Moller fanboy facebook group and the first reaction? Some genius fan actually quotes Moller's "white paper" on the stupidity of EVTOLs.
Instead of you fanboys bellyaching about your enlightenment on electric aviation on facebook and Moller message boards, why don't you directly contact Boeing, Airbus, Porsche, Toyota, Hyundai, Piper, Pipistrel, Embraer, Larry Page, Sebastian Thrun, some other big and small companies and individuals and, of course, some governments like Japan and Singapore. You guys can save these companies, individuals and governments BILLIONS of dollars with your superior knowledge and insight. You, my friends, can save the world.
Just on a side note. Remember, even the Wright brothers said that fixed wing aircraft will never become a viable form of transport. They said aircraft will remain a 'sporting' vehicle, because engines will never become powerful enough to carry passengers in large scale. They also said a couple of years later that helicopters will never be practical, also because of the power needed to lift them.
All I'm saying is that if you didn't become enlightened yourself, if you didn't crunch the numbers yourself and you are relying on the opinion of so called "experts", then remember, experts can also be wrong. Even more so if the so called 'expert' is pushing an agenda.
Of course the guy selling beef will tell you that it is superior to mutton, pork or chicken. Of course the guy selling apples will tell you apples are healthier than pears and peaches. Of course the guy trying to sell you worthless foreign currency at inflated rates will tell you there is a 'global currency reset' coming...And of course these people will have some form of document to verify that claim. Of course they will have done studies and research. Problem is, companies' research is often biased and subjective.
Don't forget Banking. Internet banking? What a disaster! Your money will disappear through the wires, they said. Now, I cannot remember the last time I set foot in a real bank. Perhaps 5 years ago, if not more. Cash. I have some cash in my wallet now, because I went on vacation and figured I'd get some just in case, otherwise I never have cash on me. Mobile phones? Only for high net worth executives. A status symbol more than a practical tool. Now nobody can live without one. We use it to watch TV, listen to music, shop, bank, buy and sell shares, keep in touch with people halfway across the world, track our children's movement, record life events and the list goes on.
Nah, you are right. Progress cannot be stopped.
I read just now that Porsche and Boeing is also partnering up to explore the "high end" urban air mobility market. There are very few Aircraft and Car manufacturers left that are not exploring EVTOL aircraft.
Luckily the Moller fans have quietly disappeared. As I knew they would. Otherwise some nut would have said "Moller should contact Porsche and Boeing right away!". On the other hand, they one guy that loved saying Moller should partner up with (whoever and article was about) did become enlightened by the end.
Well said, You never know what the future may hold
There was a time when EV's were considered a joke and nobody will every buy them in the masses. Plus there was a time that streaming movies was never going to work because we all really wanted to go to a video store and pick out what we wanted. Then there was a time when brick and mortar stores were the only way to go as nobody was ever going to buy into the notion of doing things online. Plus, people would only ride in certified taxis as using a shared ride service was never going to happen.
EVTOL's will never happen as people only want something like gasoline to power their trip to the store all while doing it by air.
Moller released a 1 page white paper a few years back (when Zack Rabin still worked for him for free) on how stupid Electric VTOLs are.
No, Moller will never go electric. Will he ever admit that he was wrong about the rotary engine? I think not.
Ahh, good old Zack. Remember what the fanboys said about Zack? They said "this time is different".
I think there is a place in the market for Non-electric VTOLs, but electric is definitely where big money is flowing into.
I don't know if it is age, but there was a time where Moller used to pump out new 'designs' in an afternoon. Think M100, M200 and the various Military models. They looked like they were drawn by grade schoolers.
I am surprised that he didn't spend an afternoon 'designing' an EVTOL, even just to fake the impression that he is still relevant. They did talk 'hybrid' a few times, but also it was just a little stab at relevance.
This reminds me of 10 years ago when it came to EV's.
They will never work.
Nobody will ever buy them
Impractical
Just a fad
Here we are in 2019 and there are Teslas everywhere and the rest of the market is throttling up on EV's. Plus, the resources that are going onto batteries is massive. When we finally get solid state batteries, that's going to be another game changer. So, being all down on E-Vtol's is just a reaction of old people that believe it has to have gasoline for it to work for them. Good part is, there is a younger generation that has a different idea. Unless Moller goes electric, it'll never see the light of day. That's where the investments are going, not in an ICE VTOL.
My post had nothing to do with the stock. I was talking about technology.
- I know MLER will never trade again.
- I know Moller will never fly anything again.
- I know Freedom Motors, despite all the "good news" will not achieve anything.
- I know both FM & MI will go down in history as failures
I have said it countless times before.
The fanboys, on the other hand will never give up because to them, well, "this time is different". Always.
All I was trying to say is that the Fanboys who continuously bash the hundreds E-VTOL developments are not looking at the bigger picture. They are fixated on their own beliefs that Electric propulsion will never work. They are fixated on the fact that the company and man they worship is developing an internal combustion engine that is in competition with electric propulsion.
If developers, customers and regulators ever get to a point where you or I can open and app and call a 'flying car', electric or not, then the door will be open for EVERYONE regardless of what propulsion system makes your aircraft go.
Po3sHare, MLER stock was revoked. It will never trade again. EOM
FACT:
Moller Fan: "Electric VTOL is so stupid! They won't ever get more than 20 minutes flight time!"
Me: "Well, that is 20 minutes longer flight time than anything Moller has!"
Besides, for the type of application these E-VTOL aircraft are designed, 20 minutes is enough. It is called "Urban Air Mobility" for a reason.
In my 20's I did the whole 'city life' thing. An 8 mile commute took me 1 hour on a good day and if there was an accident on the freeway (and there were a lot of them), it took me up to 3 hours to get to work. Heading home after work was even worse. In peak time that 8 miles back, without any problems on the freeway, took 1 hour 30 minutes if one chose to do it. I opted to leave the office later, but it still meant getting home late. Sitting in traffic is the MAIN reason I now live in a large town and not in a city.
Most E-VTOL trips will be 10 minutes or less.
I see the 'quadcopter-type' designs (like E-hang) doing the short hops, the 'fixed-wing' type designs (kitty hawk cora) for hops a bit longer and there are even the non-electric XTI Trifan and Pegasus VBJ VTOL 'business jets' for city to city travel. Somewhere between the 'VTOL Business Jets' and the 'fixed wing VTOL' I see space for a M400-type aircraft.
My point is, instead of bashing E-VTOL, Moller fans should support it. If these new flying cars fail, then the door will close for your company as well. Many companies and people are sinking billions into this. If this all goes tits-up, then NO investor, in the near future, will touch anything Flying Car related. It will be better for YOU, Moller Fan, if this thing works out. It will create opportunities for YOUR company.And lets face it, the reason Moller is where it is, is because doors won't open for them. The success of these VTOL Air Taxis may very well unlock some doors for Moller.
Besides, I doubt companies like Boeing, Airbus, Hyundai, Toyota and startups with backers like Larry Page and Sebastian Thrun and NASA will listen to your bellyache over the impracticality of electric propulsion.
BTW where’s the update from FM with all their alleged good news?
So what was the final outcome with exchanging MLER stock for FM stock
Keep us posted if you receive a response
I called them the other day to ask and got voicemail and left them a message. If it's like the lats time I contacted them, then they return phone call will happen soon. When I mean soon, that's when I'm telling you the sun is a dying star and will burn out soon. That frame of reference when it comes to time.
According to the annual reports, the Moller International shares that were sold before the company went public (October 2003) sold at prices ranging from $7.50 to $0.90 each.
If some of these guys had as many shares as they used to claim they had, they certainly *ought* to be pissed.
Yup, and how did faking credibility work out for MI? Sure, a lot of noise was made, but when it came to handing over cash, people with sense knew better.
FM is walking the same path, but with them not being a listed company, they will go after individuals and as we have seen with MI before they were listed, there are a lot of fools that were willing to part with their money.
I would also like to know what Jeff thinks about all this, but those guys that gave Moller money for shares before they went public, I would like to know that they think.
I would presume that the current plan with Freedom Motors is what the plan was for Moller International from 2003 - 2015 -- Fake credibility to fool someone into funding them.
I don't see the collapse of Moller International as changing that. They're not in a position to do anything else.
I would be *really* interested to know what Jeff feels about Moller being delisted...
Greenpower1, call the company and ask;
They still exist but MLER stock will never trade again.
Good luck
With the stock being revoked, what happens next for Moller? Will this change the current plans with Freedom Motors?
rwandrw, MLER stock was revoked not delisted. EOM
It is NOT worth less in there seance it is delisted, it has been idled as the plan has been, ALL money and effort is not place into Freedom motors the motor the car would use. MI received between 5-30% of any FM motor sales...As of right now FM New CEO is still working on getting deals
TRUSTUNITS1000000, MLER revoked; now completely worthless. EOM
Last October, Paul was offering to sell Freedom Motors shares at $0.75 each (half the so-called market price), but you had to buy at least 2500 shares. Then in January, David posted that "A large FM stockholder must liquidate its stock ownership" and was offering shares at $0.975 each, but you had to buy at least 2000 of them. Most recently, the offer is $1.00 each, minimum of 1000 shares, and lesser amounts will be considered if there is interest.
How much are Freedom Motor shares currently worth?
Why 2 s when seller is higher
How does he sleep at night?!
I feel the scooters will be good
They can offer FM stock for MI stock for 1:1 for all I care. FM is going nowhere. I've been following these companies for long enough to know that they are incapable of achieving anything despite all the talk, talk, talk, talk...
Moller kept on tinkering with his Skycars until the funding dried up. He will tinker with the engines until the funding also dries up. Not that there is any funding at this stage. Talk of finding, yes, but no 'investment partner' has put pen on paper yet.
Even if, by some miracle, an 'investment partner' gives FM some money, they will tinker it away before anything concrete happens and then we'll be back to the square called 'we cant move forward, because we have no money'.
How dare I say that, you ask? I say that, because that is what Moller does. He's been doing it for 60 years. He's a tinkerer. He uses funding given to him by investors like he used grants back in his college professor days.
You really think that after 60 years of tinkering and blowing through millions of dollars that 'this time is different'?
That whole definition of insanity thing may apply to those who believe 'this time is different' and 'Moller won't let us down'. Wake up. Smell the coffee.
Headed to .0000 range with no bids. Right where this scam belongs.
Maybe wait a few months or yrs and if freedom does well then buy if they go public or buy privately
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Moller International (MLER)
http://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/MLER/news
*** TOP REASONS TO BUY MLER ***
The Rotapower® Engine
Moller International (MLER) has developed a lightweight cutting edge rotary engine technology, called Rotapower®. It is vibration free with twice the power and one third the weight and size of the engine it is replacing designed AND the company has developed for the first and only feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle the world has ever seen. (Flying cars called volanters the future is here!) It produces 3 Hp per each 1lbs
Moller International (MLER) has exclusively licensed its Rotapower® rotary engine production and distribution to Freedom Motors except for aircraft and ducted fans. Everytime Freedom Motors sells an engine Moller International (MLER) gets a cut!!
Freedom Motors agreement with Moller International (MLER) provides for a 5% royalty on engine sales and 30% of any revenue Freedom Motors receives from sub-license agreements it makes.
Freedom Motors has contracted with Moller International (MLER) to provide all engine development and now owes Moller International (MLER) approximately $4 million for these services
BUT IT GETS EVEN BETTER:
Moller International (MLER) focusing on it's sky car production has already received orders with deposits for its Skycar 200 and Firefly volantors. The Skycar is capable of vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) similar to a helicopter and flies from point of departure to destination much like an airplane. However, the Skycar has been designed to also travel at low speed for short distances on the ground like an automobile. It has fold-up wings which make it narrow enough to be usable on roadways. All this and, incredibly, it's easy to fly!
Neuera/Firefly volantors
There is an exception in the FAA rules for airplanes that weigh less than about 1400lbs. They are called Light Sport Aircraft (LSA). Moller International (MLER) plan to work with the FAA to create a category for powered lift aircraft which has the advantages of the LSA category. The Neuera/Firefly is a is particularly suitable for: Border Patrol, Search and Rescue and Utility Use or ATV replacement. Getting the Neuera/Firefly is now the priority, since it will talk the least amout of FAA Regs to jump over to get it certified.
Awesome share structure, as of February 19, 2015 there were 150M A/S and 69,379,796 shares of common stock outstanding meaning that when the share price rises it can rise quickly with the limited number of shares available!
Moller International (MLER) will eventually be uplisted to a senior exchange if it is not purchased by a bigger company which is highly likely! Currently MLER shares are trading around a penny, with it's new revenues and continued growth look for MLER to be trading in the multi dollar range within 12 months.
President and Chairman of the Board Dr. Moller has received 43 patents including the first U.S. patent on a fundamentally new form of powered lift aircraft
Moller International (MLER)
http://www.moller.com/
Freedom Motors
http://www.freedom-motors.com/
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