Drillbits & Bottlerockets (DBnBR)

[Mattu]

One only need to have witnessed Jenna's thread and the antics that ensued to see how it can play out. The funny part of it is that she blames a few people but if she would read Josef's post carefully she would realize how ridiculous she looks to many...or is she going to claim Josef is one of the BANKRUPT THREE

>>Did you happen to notice when Jenna came over here, the sheer volume of posts that got deleted the same day? She was harrased, attacked, and everything in between. How'd you like to have a gang of thugs attack you all at once? That's what happened that week. And I let her handle the situation. She's an adult. And to me, she did a fair job. Got rid of the garbage and blew off a bit of steam. Go read her thread today. Full of stock trading calls and all about the markets -- the exact reason for this place's existance. If the thugs were allowed to reign, we'll still be arguing about useless garbage. And you know it.

And I have YET to hear what you are going to do when a COB CLEARLY violates the terms of use..such as posting personal information as Jenna has done.

>>Bob has some other angles he is going to attack the situation in the future and the TOS will be updated..

I would suggest they be reinstated so that everyone can see what DOES ***NOT*** CONSTITUTE A TOU violation on this site.

>>I don't see the point. People can read the TOS. It's fairly clear. But for those people who's clear intentions and SOLE posting histories indicate an obsession with a certain woman, there is no hope in pointing things out to them. Because their goal is to destroy. So why bother?


MB

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

>>This is what I am struggling with, Jorj. There is NO difference between the OLD SI and IH
deletions. Except for the speed at which it happens. People with agendas don't have half a
chance. If you post about a stock or add value to the conversation..Watch, you'll never get
deleted. Go look at the boards in the 'stock clubs' section. AWesome groups. Very very little
deleted posts. Our main place we get deletions is the stock boards. Most of those are b/c of
personal attacks, spam, etc. We are working on a new policy for "libel" etc. That is very shady to
all sites.


I would posit that there is a HUGE difference between SI and IH deletions. People with agendas who operate as a COB...stand a big chance.

One only need to have witnessed Jenna's thread and the antics that ensued to see how it can play out. The funny part of it is that she blames a few people but if she would read Josef's post carefully she would realize how ridiculous she looks to many...or is she going to claim Josef is one of the BANKRUPT THREE

And I have YET to hear what you are going to do when a COB CLEARLY violates the terms of use..such as posting personal information as Jenna has done.

Also, you clearly stated on this thread that Jenna has not violated any terms of use with her posts...that SHE deleted.
I would suggest they be reinstated so that everyone can see what DOES ***NOT*** CONSTITUTE A TOU violation on this site.

[Mattu]

The inequity that I am seeing is now not on what is deleted, but what is allowed to stand. I can show you examples where a post by somebody who is seen as hostile to the stock is deleted for cause, while an equivalent post that should be deleted is allowed to stand. And since the inequity is on the side of a post not being deleted, there will be no complaint to the admin. It still has the affect of slanting the bias of the thread toward that of the COB.


>>This is where you e-mail Bob and say "Hey, check this out. This Chair isn't being fair. And Bob will look into it and give you and honest reply.


I will definitely be giving my input on the UI.

>>Looking forward to it.


On the COB issue. It is important to design your policies in such a way as to take into account human nature. The ability to silence someone who disagrees with you is a powerful temptation. I don't believe that there are too many people who can resist the temptation if the activity is unfettered. That is to say, that there are no real consequences to abuses of the COB powers. Most people who will take the initiative to be a COB have a lot invested in their reputations. These reputations are tied to their aliases. If the ramification of abusing the COB powers is that their account is terminated, and if they have to pay for membership to the site, there will be both financial and reputational ramifications to their actions.


>>This WILL NOT happen on stock-specific boards. On 'stock clubs' like say Bottlerockets, you will have more flexibility IF YOU WANT. Your pay to play thing is something we are considering once critical mass is hit.


Now, if you terminate a user for multiple accounts, it is a meaningless gesture since it is simple to create another alias.

>>I think you rae posting this in reference to the CoB? It's pretty hard to takeover your thread with a mult alias is you got booted. Bob does a bit of homework and you have to be 'established' before taking it over. A new alias wont cut the cheese.


One of the things that I didn't post is that I disagree with the policy of not allowing criticism of other members. If that member has the power to move a stock, then their character is very much a legitimate target for scrutiny. The parking lot is ok for amusement, but if you have someone of dubious ethics setting people up to be ripped off, the message should be heard in the forum where it is relevant.


>>There is a difference between being critical and personally attacking. Most of the stuff that goes on over on the 'other site' is personal attacking. Blatant. Now, you can't start a board regarding "Let's discuss the dirty paid tout or basher" But if you want to discuss the topic on your own board, fine. But you know as well is I do, if someone is 'dirty' they will expose themselves eventually.

>>The one thing I want to say, is it's not Bob's job to decide who the tout or the basher is. Or which one we/he prefers. It's his job to decide if the content of the conversation is civil and value-added. It doesn't matter if the guy got paid a $1 million to pump the stock or bash the stock. Anybody can post and be free of personal attacks, as long as they are fair, courteous, and add discussion value.

Matt

[JXM]

>>This is what I am struggling with, Jorj. There is NO difference between the OLD SI and IH deletions. Except for the speed at which it happens. People with agendas don't have half a chance. If you post about a stock or add value to the conversation..Watch, you'll never get deleted. Go look at the boards in the 'stock clubs' section. AWesome groups. Very very little deleted posts. Our main place we get deletions is the stock boards. Most of those are b/c of personal attacks, spam, etc. We are working on a new policy for "libel" etc. That is very shady to all sites.

The inequity that I am seeing is now not on what is deleted, but what is allowed to stand. I can show you examples where a post by somebody who is seen as hostile to the stock is deleted for cause, while an equivalent post that should be deleted is allowed to stand. And since the inequity is on the side of a post not being deleted, there will be no complaint to the admin. It still has the affect of slanting the bias of the thread toward that of the COB.

I will definitely be giving my input on the UI.

On the COB issue. It is important to design your policies in such a way as to take into account human nature. The ability to silence someone who disagrees with you is a powerful temptation. I don't believe that there are too many people who can resist the temptation if the activity is unfettered. That is to say, that there are no real consequences to abuses of the COB powers. Most people who will take the initiative to be a COB have a lot invested in their reputations. These reputations are tied to their aliases. If the ramification of abusing the COB powers is that their account is terminated, and if they have to pay for membership to the site, there will be both financial and reputational ramifications to their actions.

Now, if you terminate a user for multiple accounts, it is a meaningless gesture since it is simple to create another alias.

One of the things that I didn't post is that I disagree with the policy of not allowing criticism of other members. If that member has the power to move a stock, then their character is very much a legitimate target for scrutiny. The parking lot is ok for amusement, but if you have someone of dubious ethics setting people up to be ripped off, the message should be heard in the forum where it is relevant.



JXM

[Mattu]

Our halftime report has SI and iHub about even on the jorj-o-meter.

>>Clearly needs a little tuning there dude! May I suggest WD-40? <g>

SI's blatant disregard for the needs, wants and desires of the members (at least the only member that counts) with no indication that it will get better is troubling.

>>Yes, and this was part of the founding vision for iHub. Go back to the WISH list board. You will see this thing is totally built by the members. Always will be.

But it is the incumbant and it doesn't have a format that caters to control freaks and touts.

>>This is what I am struggling with, Jorj. There is NO difference between the OLD SI and IH deletions. Except for the speed at which it happens. People with agendas don't have half a chance. If you post about a stock or add value to the conversation..Watch, you'll never get deleted. Go look at the boards in the 'stock clubs' section. AWesome groups. Very very little deleted posts. Our main place we get deletions is the stock boards. Most of those are b/c of personal attacks, spam, etc. We are working on a new policy for "libel" etc. That is very shady to all sites.



And though they screwed up the UI massively, it is still better than iHub (IMVHO).

>>This is where you step in and tell me what you want.


iHub appears to be open to user suggestion, but the COB concept has some serious flaws. Or maybe the flaws aren't in the concept, just in the people that are gravitating to the COB role.

>>Again, see above. I agree the CoB needs a little tuning. Just like your Jorj-o-meter does. We are in the process of adding a few little features to the CoB so that the Chair asks "Should I really hide this post" But again, bottom line, if the post isn't restored and Chairman talked to, then it's Bob who is the scammer. And the chances of that are zero.


If iHub was a pay site, then the admin could do some aversion therapy to COBs who don't get it and it should cut down on the number of multiple aliases.

>>SI had the same problem with mult aliases. We have been pretty good at busting a number of them. I have in the past and Bob will to check out an alias you feel is a double. I have terminated pleny of accounts for it. But just like my quote from that aritlcle "Nobody knows the community better than the community" -- We can only do our jobs better if YOU guys help us. The whole CoB idea. There is much more to a CoB than just removing posts.


iHub does have the advantage of having somebody there who understands the idea of a 2D community, but it may take some time to nurture that.

>>I think we just have a perception hurdle to cross with a few SI folks. However, many of them are just kicking up dust for no reason :)

Right now, I have it as a tie, but....tie goes to the runner.

>>Tweak it JXM. Trust me.



This was meant as a friendly discussion. I dont want to get in any flame wars or anything over this. I am completely open to suggestions. As long as they are constructive and presented in a discussable manner. Isn't this what you guys have always wanted on SI?

matt

[JXM]

Our halftime report has SI and iHub about even on the jorj-o-meter.
SI's blatant disregard for the needs, wants and desires of the members (at least the only member that counts) with no indication that it will get better is troubling. But it is the incumbant and it doesn't have a format that caters to control freaks and touts. And though they screwed up the UI massively, it is still better than iHub (IMVHO). And, it is familiar. SI though has the burden of pretty actively destroying the UI and community environment.
I consider the fact that it is a pay site to be a positive rather than a negative.

iHub appears to be open to user suggestion, but the COB concept has some serious flaws. Or maybe the flaws aren't in the concept, just in the people that are gravitating to the COB role. If iHub was a pay site, then the admin could do some aversion therapy to COBs who don't get it and it should cut down on the number of multiple aliases. iHub does have the advantage of having somebody there who understands the idea of a 2D community, but it may take some time to nurture that.

Right now, I have it as a tie, but....tie goes to the runner.

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=15718996

[Zactly]

Zactly!

[OMD]

LOL!

[JXM]

I have about 69 of them myself.

This is the one that I enjoy posting from the most.
http://www.investorshub.com/beta/profile.asp?user=5343

[OMD]

Why do I get the impression there are a lot of people around here with multiple aliases???? Hmmmm

[JXM]

NW,
I am ready to duke it out.

Since it is my thread, I get to select the dueling style....

Sumo Wrestling.

[Napoleonic Wannabe]

Anyone up for a coup d'état??

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

I am still trying to figure out the hostile takeover play...you know these things take planning

[JXM]

Damn, foiled by my own damn rules.

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

Actually ..it does

"Watch what you say, cuz I believe that if you post something
that makes you look like an idiot, that it should stand as evidence for everybody."


hahahahaha

[JXM]

I may just have to delete your post since it doesn't fit into the thread guidelines.

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

There hasnt been a post on this thread for almost two weeks....where are those hostile takeovers?

Can I have this thread? I could play with Tim Luke on it but he has already been banned.

On second thought..i guess I will leave it to Vendit

[JXM]

R.Black,
Lots of things far more important than this. However, in the context of this forum, I think that a bias by the admin is relevant and important. I didn't disrupt any other thread with my questions to Matt, so I don't really see as to how it is any of your business that I address Matt in this forum. However, since Matt has opted to not respond, it was pretty much dropped until you posted on the thread.
JXM

[R.Black]

Please JXM, like the man said, let's not waste any more time on this and let's move on. More important stuff going on.

[JXM]

I won't let anyone attack you either.

Does this mean that you are acting in a proactive way to stop personal attacks or do you wait for somebody to delete a post and make a decision based on the deletion?

You were fully aware of what was happening on this thread several weeks ago and I didn't see you doing anything proactively. As a matter of fact, you publicly chastised me even though I was obviously responding to an attack. The fact that you didn't publicly chastise the other member shows a clear bias on your part.

So, of the 16 posts that were deleted today and that you allowed to remain deleted, were any of them market/stock related?

[Mattu]

I thought I read a post by you on the Porcher thread today that 16 posts were deleted, not four. And the deletion of any post that is within the bounds of the thread topic and general thread guidelines is not "nothing major" to me.

>>I was referring to a certain poster who was rather irritated about his posts being removed. He had 4 removed.


As for the thread not really becoming anything until the 'friends' move over, that seems like a rather judgemental comment. I have read a number of thoughtful market-related posts there which I thought were indeed "something".

>>No, it was just my opinion. Excuse me. I probably shouldn't have had one..Whoops. My comment was basically saying that you won't get that same 'style and environment' that you have on the Porch thread on SI until they come over.

Perhaps I misunderstand the intent of the Porchers thread, or any other thread which, like my Options Box, is the IHub chapter of something which was started on SI. These threads are new chapters, open to new posters interested in the topic at hand, as well as SI members, no? I would think, as site administrator, you would be encouraging topic-appropriate posting as well the mixing of posters from various sites.

>>Of course I am all for on-topic posting. I just don't care for posts laced with personal comments and contantly attacking (in any way) other people. I won't let anyone attack you either. You shouldn't have to put up with it, neither should anyone else.

So that is why I wanted to say just "give it a clean slate..I'm not going to worry about the other posts..let's play fair and start over."

matt

[Mattu]

The main posts in question....

was 1 post. It was deleted.

The other 3 posts that got deleted were asking WHY it got deleted.

Nothing major.

The thread won't really become anything until the 'friends' move over. At that point, maybe dealer would like to start clean. Her choice.

matt

[Mattu]

My reasoning was very simple if you read the entire post..

I wanted a clean slate for everybody...

Just forget about whatever was said..personal or not..and move on.

Matt

[JXM]

Matt,
I am not sure I understand why you lumped all of the messages in the same category on the porch. You indicated that you are going to keep all of them removed, even though you indicate that at least some of them were about stocks. What is the logic in keeping the stock related posts deleted?

http://www.investorshub.com/beta/read_msg.asp?message_id=68812

[JXM]

SOX holding up well....up against the BRL on the 10pt chart (not shown), Moving averages getting close to a buy. Bit of a W pattern with a higher right leg than left. Higher lows, DT break. If the SOX can move to 620, I think we may have seen the bottom for the naz. I wouldn't be surprised with a pullback to 580 or 590 or so though before continuing upward.

http://www.stockcharts.com/webcgi/Pnf.asp?S=sox&Y=U&B=10&N=B&T=on

[JXM]

It does look like it, and then 9100, but I like the 8000-8100 area as a target.

[jackhartmann]

Jorj, Nice chart. Looks like 9700 is a key support level to watch closely, correct?

Jack

[JXM]

Yes, I do.

http://www.stockcharts.com/webcgi/Pnf.asp?S=$INDU&Y=U&B=100&E=on&N=A&T=on

What bothers me about the dow chart is that it is a rounding top.

Yo no me gusta

[jackhartmann]

I was thinking the Dow has consolidated the runup of the mid 1990s for 18 months and due for a breakout. (Hopefully up)


Got a Piffer chart handy?


Jack

[JXM]

I am thinking about it in the way that we have often thought about the naz in the past few years. Kinda like the idea that the generals are the last ones to get shot, and then the market can recover. In this case, the Dow is the general.

[jackhartmann]

the dow needs to get spanked hard before we can start making our bearskin rug

Why are you thinking that? I figure the historical data suggest that Dow will rally.

For the Dow since 1971, the average performance for the month following the third rate cut is 1.99%. The average month for the Dow overall is 0.79%. The average performance for the year following the third rate cut is 22.42%. The average year for the Dow overall is 10.32%
From Don Luskin of Metamarket

Jack

[JXM]

(from a post that I made on SI)

I am tending to lean to the rally side for the response to the fred. People were talking about yesterday's rally being action that priced in any rate cut. Considering the tremendous bull run last week, I think I will disagree. I think that yesterday's action was simple short covering in front of the fred.

Last week's action almost seems like the stock market was pricing in either a 0 or 25 bps cut instead of 50 or 75.

So, I think that I am looking for the rally to 2300, pullback to 2000 and then some consolidation between 2100 and 2200. Pure speculation though on my part. I do think that a bottom may be in place (at least for the naz) and this being (potentially) the third rate cut, I don't like the short side right now.

The one thing that may change my views there is that I think that the dow needs to get spanked hard before we can start making our bearskin rug. And last week's action was a mere scolding.

Naz 75pt chart
http://www.stockcharts.com/webcgi/Pnf.asp?S=$COMPQ&Y=U&B=75&N=A&T=on

[QThink]

Sorry for the intrusion, JXM.

[QThink]

Please check my posts on Jennas thread, after #116.

One, I stated that Jenna's chart of CTXS was ambiguous, the second, I called her to task on her statement that she'd never delete a post that disagreed with her strategies.

Do you consider those "trash"?


=====================
I was able to save the second, she was too quick on the delete key for me to save the first.
=====================

Posted by: QThnink
In reply to: jenna who wrote msg# 57 Date: 3/19/2001 7:43:46 PM (ET)
Post # of 122

So why did you just delete my post about your CTXS chart?



http://www.investorshub.com/beta/read_msg.asp?message_id=61498
Matt, who has kindly worked double time, on the weekend yet, to help ban them and teach me how to use the delete post feature. In a few days we can ban the few that might come to intrude. There are NOT many, they are just very intent and focused but I doubt we will have any problems. We will never, ever delete any posts that disagree with our stock selections, or our strategies, we are ONLY zeroing in on those few from SI that seem to follow around the popular thread heads and their intent is ONLY TO ANNOY and attack.

[JXM]

Of course grubbing is allowed

I would recommend going to Stockcharts and going through the tutorial. A good start.

[jackhartmann]

Jorj, What Piffer book do you recommend for novices? I found Dorsey's book a little tough to read. I did like the historical perspective though.

So is grubbing allowed here? You got some 100K veterans on the site. <gg>

Jack

[JXM]

Long term play. With a PE of 7, I think it actually may have and extended upside.

I would like to see a double out of it.

[OMD]

IDTI -- Is that a long term or short term play?

[JXM]

Entered IDTI at 31.76.

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=15527854

[JXM]

Ok, enuff trashing of other SI/iHub personalities.

I want this thread to be a friendly place for people to meet. I made the mistake of reacting to some stuff in an overly aggressive way, but in the future, I am going to try to take the high road for which I hope that I was once known.

Frankly, I think that the point that was made about Theresa Lo teaching people how to fish is important. She provides a true service that lifts people up.

And I have never really cared about the advertising. My issues there on SI were always with inequitable application of the TOUs and then some behavioral things.

All of the threads that I have ever hosted on SI were good natured 99.9% of the time. If I am to come over to iHub, I want this thread to carry on that legacy.

From this point on, I would request that this thread and its participants operate on that premise.

JXM

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

It does appear that you can join for .01 to see what Teresa Lo is all about...though I have watched her for a long time and she does quite well. I have seen her teach people how to fish . I think you had to join before 4 pm est today so I guess anyone who didnt do that will have to wait for the following week.

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

Well.now..I am not going to say I have NEVER had another alias...hahahahahahahhahaa

actually, I just made that post to do a little tweaking..hey JXM..does that tell you if it is the REAL me or not....

actuallly, here is one for you. .... I have an OLD account set up that has never made a post. I guess you can just wait to see if it shows up....

and I can state that Benedicta is NOT benedito..but I thought it was a interesting comparison of names...

I actually like the name and would have liked to have had it...

[jackhartmann]

alas, you are incorrect about that.....

Not even MistressSpellcaster?

You really couldn't say if you were on SI lest a witch hunt would get started by SI Admin. Past old enemies always drag that TOU out to burn any rebirth.

Benedicta is not Benedito, but could be Bandita. <gg>

I sent Tokyo Joe an e-mail to set up a site since it's like old home week in 1999 all over again.

I hear the misses calling. night.

Jack

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

alas, you are incorrect about that.....

though it is interesting to hunt and guess if any of the news ones belong to Jenna...like
benedicta

I am surprised no one accused me of that one...

However, Jenna did have a point about one thing. You can't assume that two people are the same just because they belong to the same Internet service provider. SI offered free memberships to family members and I do believe they would not only use the same IP but they would use the same machine.

Those that are technically oriented know just how to use proxies so as not to be identified by machine or by IP. In fact, you can string proxies together, turn off java, and they won't know where you are originating from as long as you are using a proxy that doesn't reveal info (and some do) There are also programs that you can buy that take care of this. Due to the nature of the net and what web sites can do to you... I recommend people surf this way

If I wanted 100 ID's on Silicon Investor I could do it without them knowing. But why bother. I have other fish to fry. Though now the "where in the world is Lisa groupies" are REALLY going to be looking for me underneath every alias.

Of course, ultimately you can be tracked down by authorities unless you are one of those Russian Hackers that are getting all those credit card numbers.

People can also spoof anothers email address and all kinds of things can happen on the net.

I have a friend that could send email and make it look like it came from you providing he knew your address...and oh lord...next jenna is going to try to accuse me of sending these mails to Teresa Lo from her IP...hahahahahahaha

[jackhartmann]

'cause I am "half-baked"

Not too much so as you created more aliases than John Dillinger.

Jack

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

'cause I am "half-baked" and that means my two cents worth is only worth one cent...

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

If you want some fun go drag your boyfriend into Victoria's Secret when they are giving away 5.00 gift certificates to try on a bra...they were doing it this weekend...and get him to ask for a coupon...the look on the sales girls faces are priceless

Of course, this wasnt MY idea. I had some friends who dragged ME in and did it just to see me turn redder than that red hot underwear. Three guys and me and I was the INNOCENT one in this ....(there you jenna..more food for your fodder)

[jackhartmann]

I want to check it out tomorrow with a .01 donation

Why not splurge and give your two cents worth. <gg>

Jack

[Lisa aka Viperchick]

Joe's Crab Shack Tie Dyes work for me

does anyone know how to donate less than 25.00 to Teresa Lo's site. I have a paypal account and I want to check it out tomorrow with a .01 donation

[jackhartmann]

Wow, What a surprise, Jorj, Lisa, and Lola. And me without my bottle of Myer's rum.

To think I thought this was about oil drilling. <gg>

Jack