Bob's Track Friends Chat (TRAKDAWGS)

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Wow! Could see him in the mirror for a bit, then he ran out of track right at the bridge abutment when trying to pass.

I've seen cars dart across the track in front of me, but never with quite that kind of velocity. And he passed the driver's car like it was standing still. In the dirt, even!

[OldAIMGuy]

Hey Bob, And you didn't want to ride with me! How about a ride with this guy in the Daytona Coupe???

http://www.cateseng.com/catesracing/2005_09_summit/DAN_ELAM.wmv

He was sanctioned by FAA for not filing a Flight Plan!!!



TV

[OldAIMGuy]

Thanks Bob, It would be fun to compare the two cars lean in the same corners!



I think Gary and Sheridan both had fun in the Pumpkin. Wind in the face and all!

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Here are a few pics from Sheridan's camera. Will snail-mail you the CD.

First, you and I on the fastest part of the track. Sheridan was standing at the 5 marker to turn 5 when he took these, so we're in the 120-140 range, though it looks like we're sitting still.




You helping Gary get strapped into the Pumpkin. Hmmm.. Familiar-looking car in the background.


Gary ready to test his neck muscles against a 100+ mph wind. Familiar-looking car gone. Likely on the grid waiting to go have fun.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, I'm glad you made it home okay. Sounds like one tiring drive.

The Scoob looks like it's singing

Scrub a dub dub!

Yes, Looks like some camber plates are needed.

Being a former 'Stang piloto, I know how much fun those cars can be in the right place. Take good care of it.

Talked to Ryan today. He's a bit stiff and sore. I didn't have any after effects of his demonstration of the 5 mph rear bumpers! He's getting it repaired, most likely.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Thanks even more for your generous hospitality and showing us how best to play on that track.

It definitely added to its fan base. What a fun (and tiring) track!

I got home at 1:30 last night and was asleep before 1:31. Drove straight through.

The Scoob definitely is a fun car on that track, but the Mustang was definitely where it belonged. It's never been on a track that so wonderfully rewarded what few really good traits it has. Felt like "home" for the car, and it's really unfortunate that it's probably the only time that particular car will see that track. It'll get retired sometime next year and I'll have my daughter help me restore it then we'll moth-ball it and hopefully it'll be pretty valuable as a one-owner when she inherits it.

And for all the grousing I was doing about an advanced student not playing well with others on the track (not pointing me by even when I was using his rear bumper to scrape the bugs off my front), an instructor in a 2002 later made me feel so much better. He passed me between a couple of turns then was quick to point me by on the straight. Too bad the session was so short. I bet he and I could've had a lot of fun just swapping positions on different parts of the track. Especially if we'd been running in the instructor session so we could actually pass mid-turn.

I really appreciated that in return for my not holding him up in the turns, he didn't make me hold back the Scoob's screaming horses as it ran up that stories-tall hill. I found and thanked him in the paddock.

Couple pictures. And I'm sure you've got some, too. :)




Really too bad the brakes started going away on the Mustang. As much fun as I was having in the Scoob, I still can't wipe off the silly grin the Mustang put on my face. What a great car for that track!!! And what a great track for that car!

Edit: Noticing in these pictures that the Mustang's suspension looks to be just about perfect, but the Scoob's camber appears to be going positive. And it's hard to tell in these pics, but though the Mustang is obviously rotating beautifully, it doesn't look like the Scoob is. And it rarely feels like it is. I could only get real rotation on it in 5 and 8.

Sheridan had mentioned that Gary's Scoob turns a lot better than mine, but visual inspection made it look like we're both running the same camber. As negative as the stock bolts will let it go.

I need to do some legwork because I'm really curious to see what differences there are between Gary's 2002 WRX and my 2004. We think his might actually be 200 lbs lighter, which would certain make a difference, especially if I'm carrying more weight over the front tires.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hey Bob, Hope you, Sheridan, Gary and Vince made it back just fine. It turned cold overnight, 49° this AM. I'm glad we had warmer weather for the weekend.

I assume all of you managed to get your right foot exercised enough this weekend. There aren't many tracks in the country where one can keep the throttle planted firmly to the floor for as long as one can at Road America.

You will have to come back for one of the pro weekends or maybe the BRIC in mid July. The place has a different feel with lots of spectators. I was glad to see Sheridan got to burn up some electrons with his camera.

Thanks again for letting the old guy hang out with all you youngsters!

Best regards, Tom

[OldAIMGuy]

I think Road America has added to its FAN base!

Welcome Bob and Allen!!!

Best regards,

Piloto Loco

[OldAIMGuy]

That's one scary warm-up lap!!!

Surprised he wasn't black flagged.

TV

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, The front rotors on the Pumpkin are nearing the end of their effective life also. It appears there's a rule change in the works for the Spec. Cobras that will allow us to use the later spindles ('95 and newer?) that have a hub separate from the rotor.

That would certainly be nice. It will make changing out the front rotors a much simpler task.

After driving Pete Wison's Stang in the early '90s, I'm amazed these rotors have held up so well. Then again, I'm only stopping 2/3s of the old Stang's weight.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Sheridan,

Here's the "I Was Seventh" video you sent me.

Tom, this thing's a riot.

Sheridan also sent me several others I'll put on the ad server and give out the URL's discreetly. They're more off-color.

http://adserv.stocksite.com/images/iwasseventh.wmv

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Hi Bob, Don't forget to bring my phone #s along.

Still have them in my cellphone.

R.A.'s not too hard on tires if you don't "flat spot" them!!!

I'm really bad about flat-spotting tires on the Mustang. No ABS, all the weight on the front, and effectively no rear brakes.

But I don't expect that to be a problem this time out. I'm sure the tires on the car have been heat-cycled enough that they've become effectively bald street tires, and I know the spares have reached that point. Not a lot of stick until just before they get so heat-soaked they get greasy.

Among the spares I'm bringing is a tire I knew for sure I'd flat-spotted going into the mini-carousel at HPT. Was ready to stick my arm out the window to come in, didn't hear anything, stayed on the track, went down the front straight, and everything was fine. When I came back around to the mini-carousel, sure enough, there was a long, dark Hoosier-shaped stripe on the track. Even upon close inspection, I couldn't find any damage on the tire.

It's harder on brakes and it demands a lot of time under full throttle.

I should be well-covered on both engines and brakes. I went ahead and replaced the Mustang's rotors because the old ones had small surface cracks all over them. Fine for spares. I do hate putting Hawk Blues on brand new rotors, though. And the Scoob will have the same problem. My first sessions in each car will likely be very short and I'll be doing nothing but bedding in the brakes. If I remember to grab the instructions for doing so that surely came with at least one set. I never can remember how the cycle goes.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Don't forget to bring my phone #s along.

R.A.'s not too hard on tires if you don't "flat spot" them!!!

It's harder on brakes and it demands a lot of time under full throttle.

See you soon,
Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

That's kind of the impression I was getting. I knew that something like the first 60% of the long straight is uphill, so I've been looking at the map and already pitying my poor brakes for what they're going to go through at the end of two decent downhills.

I've got the Scoob ready and the Mustang on the lift. The Scoob got new brakes, including rotors and pads. A Porterfield pad that's supposed to have nearly the same torque as the Hawk Blues but not be as abusive to its relatively expensive and fragile rotors. The Scoob also has new tires/wheels on the back and the old backs got moved to the front and the old fronts are coming along as spares. They're asymetrical and directional, so I've got one spare for each side of the car.

I went ahead and put the fuel tank in the back of the truck and filled it and found my extra marine battery, so as far as the truck goes, all I need to do is semi-securely mount the battery and wire it to the fuel pump.

I'll need to buy a jack. Haven't had a good one in ages because I usually haven't worn anything out at the track, and whenever I have, I just switched fulltime to the other car. I expect I'm going to go through plenty of brakes and tires in 5 days of track time; especially the Friday instructors/advanced students day. You gonna be running Friday?

I also need to gather up all the tools needed to service brakes and tires and make sure they're all in the trailer. Have more than enough Gatorade. I'll pick up ice in EL Sunday evening.

Won't be bringing a motorcycle at all except the parts bike I'm picking up in Illinois on the way. I'll use the Scoob for commuting.

The Mustang's going to take a lot of work. I have no idea what condition the drums and rotors are in, but they acted fine last time out, so they'll come along as spares. I'll buy new ones today. And since it's got shoes on back, the brake work will take substantially longer than the Scoob did. And I need to flush/replace the brake fluid in the Stang.

Both cars will be showing up on new brakes and rotors and have a complete set of new brake pads/shoes in boxes along with one usable front and two usable rear rotors for the Scoob, and 2 of each for the Stang. I'm literally going to be bedding in my brakes at the track.

The tires are a bit hardened, especially the spares, but they'll have to do. Not really enough time to set up the rig (sawhorses and a long pipe) to HotLap them all and let them set as long as they need to. Which reminds me. I think I've got a fair amount of tire dismounting/mounting to do for the Stang. All of my spares will be on pony wheels (turns out they're just as light as the fancy aluminum ones I got), so I need to just pick out the best ones and make sure they're on the right rims.

And still need to locate my small inverter to run the laptop in the truck since I've temporarily replaced my stolen GPS unit with a much less expensive laptop one.

Heading out here soon to pick up the Stang's drums and rotors then home to get that car ready and get everything into the trailer.

I won't have enough time to do the thing I wanted to do of putting a battery isolater in the bed of the truck and tap one of the alternators to feed the trailer batteries directly rather than through the 30-amp fuse. Was really hoping to do this, as 30 amps thrown at 8 deep-cycle batteries really doesn't do much in the way of charging them. And we've found that if the batteries are drained, starting the truck doesn't provide enough power to even run the lights in the trailer. Not until the truck has charged the batteries a bit, which takes forever at less than 4 amps per battery.

Not a big deal. I doubt we'll need much juice from the trailer. It's awfully handy when needed, though.

Darn. That reminds me. The tire inflator for my little 2-gallon air compressor is screwed up, so I need to get a replacement while I'm getting my brake rotors and drums.

Got a lot of tools and clothes to pack and also need to make sure I've got pillows and blankets since I'll probably make this trip in at least 2 or maybe 3 legs, and plan to just sleep in the trailer on the air mattress. It's really pretty cool to sleep in that thing and wake up to the smell of the coffeemaker brewing up a batch.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob,
Think UPHILL from Turn 12 all the way to Turn 1.

Think DOWNHILL from Turn 1 to Turn 5.

Think UPHILL from Turn 5 to Turn 6.

Think Downhill from Turn 6 to Turn 12.

There. The short course in driving Elkhart Lake's Road America!



TV

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

http://www.roadamerica.com/2005/images/maps/map_track.pdf

<DROOL!!!>

[OldAIMGuy]

I don't remember if I mentioned it or not, but for this last weekend I'd ordered up a new set or rear springs for the Pumpkin Racer. I'm not certain what the spring rates are that ship with the current kits. Mine's an early Spec. kit (#2911SP) but seems to be different from others in that respect.

When I first got the car I'd read the little aluminum tags on the springs to see what they were. I thought I remembered the fronts being 500 and the rears being 350s. Over the last season I have brought the car up to speed in various events at various tracks and was generally pleased with the handling in the larger, faster turns, but the the car had significant "push" in the slower corners.

Choices were to attack the slow corners more slowly or do something to lessen the push. I chose to increase rear spring rate. (Note: the Spec. Challenge cars don't have either front or rear anti-sway bars. You do it all with spring rates) I didn't want to sacrifice the fine high speed stability with the change, so decided to bump up the rear rate by 50# to 400 a side. This was enough below the fronts' rate to seem logical and still a significant enough increase to be meaningful for the car's feel.

Well, the 400s arrived from FFR quickly and it was a pleasure to find that a spring swap was such an easy job. Maybe 25 minutes a side including jacking the car and removing and replacing the wheels. That's the kind of project that I like!

Well, checking the bottoms of the old springs turned out to be an education in CRS disease. The rears were 300#, not the 350s that I had "remembered." Hmmmm, well, how's this more abrupt 100 pound rate change going to affect my handling when I expected to only massage it by 50#?

I'm delighted to say this is where I wanted it to be. If the old springs had been what I had thought, probably the 50# adjustment wouldn't have been enough. As it turns out, this is just what the PUSH Doctor needed to cure the patient. I've not sacrificed any of the higher speed stability in carossels and such but the car's turn-in and balance is far better in the tighter corners. The car responds much better to throttle input as well.

Here's what impressed me. It was easy to change the springs. I'd already done frame leveling, etc. before, so that wasn't hard to repeat with the new springs. The change was meaningful and "textbook" in response to what I wanted to change.

After the change and resetting ride height and leveling the car, I then took it to the county scales (+or- 20# accuracy!) and weighed front and rear axles, left and right sides and then each corner with me in the car. I found that there was about 60# or so difference in "Cross Weights" (or the diagonal sum weights). Back to the shop and a quick 1/2 turn of the left rear and right front spring perches to lessen the pressure these were exerting. Once more across the scales showed that I was now within 20# on the diagonal sum weights. Since the County doesn't need any more accuracy when weighing trucks filled with salt, that was as close as I could get.

After years of driving ancient English roadsters and newer "showroom stock" cars the ease of making all the adjustments that I've done to this car since I bought it 2003 has been a certain pleasure. It responds appropriately to input and is very "adjustable."

I think I'm content with the handling with the current 500F/400R combination. Many of the racers have gone to much heavier rates, closer to what an autocrosser might desire. I can't fault their logic as many of these same people are running at the front of their respective groups. My experience is with cars of "vintage" character, however, and now the FFR Cobra feels right to me. I do drive mine on the street, so these lighter spring rates are kinder to my old carcass, too.

Other info:
Driver weight = 200#
Car weight = 2540 w/driver & full 22gal. tank
Cross Weights - LF-RR = 1260#, RF-LR = 1280#
Tires (street) = 245-45/17 Hankook "Ventus"
Tires (vintage racing) = 225-60/15 Hoosier TD
Steering rack = standard location (no Ackerman mod)

The car tracks essentially equally in both left and right hand turns.

Best regards,
Tom

[OldAIMGuy]

The 30th Northwoods Shelby Club invitational at Road America is now in the history books. We had spectacular weather the entire weekend and all entries enjoyed at least 4 track sessions a day.


(entering Turn 14 before the LONG Start/Finish straight)


(apex of Turn 14 before S/F Straight)

Bob, the track is calling to you!!! Can you hear it???


TV
PS: More pics from R.A. weekend........
http://www.ediecast.com/cgi-bin/edphotos.cgi?pm=GI&year=2005&date=082605&page=1

[Phil(Hot Rod Chevy)]

Found out later that the folks up north seem to really hate this and "I'm going to pass on the next straight" distance is something like 100 yards or so. I was mugging nearly half of them, and always in brake zones.

Shit, it's racing.

I say all is fair as long as you don't wreck them.

If they don't like it let them find something else to do with their spare time.

Maybe they would enjoy racing up and down the rivers and lakes in a bass boat.

Then we could call them bassholes.

I'm sure you and your friends have a nickname for the buttheads that want to make you stay 100 yards away from them before passing.

If you did that on the interstate you'd never get around anyone.

LOL

Have fun,
Phil

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Got my Brainerd pics today. Bunches of 'em. Here are my faves.

Looks like I've got a lot more girth than I really do. In reality, I've got a thrill-seeking passenger. Would guess a buck-twenty here on the way to about 145.


Found out later that the folks up north seem to really hate this and "I'm going to pass on the next straight" distance is something like 100 yards or so. I was mugging nearly half of them, and always in brake zones.


And the Scoob all by its lonesome on the front straight. Probably pulling about a buck right here on the way to 125.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Re: Photos...
If JDoc could slow his shutter speed a bit and close down the aperture he'd get the wheels to look like they're turning, too!





Looks like lots of fun.

Thanks,
Tom

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, the AWD in the W8 is a 50/50 split. The only car I know of that doesn't seem to "push" like that is the baby Jag X-type. It's fore/aft split is 40/60. It's supposed to feel like a very well balanced rear driver.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

I'll just post the URLs to these I found.

Me in the Scoob earlier this year at MAM with a passenger.
http://public.fotki.com/jdoctor/2005_mam_events/pca_-_may_2005/saturday/_dsc1819.html

Closing in on a 2005 Mustang (likely a rental on street tires) I'm getting ready to pass.
http://public.fotki.com/jdoctor/2005_mam_events/pca_-_may_2005/saturday/_dsc1866.html

Major oops, fortunately not involving me.
http://public.fotki.com/jdoctor/2005_mam_events/pca_-_may_2005/saturday/_dsc1998.html

Me all alone in the Stang.
http://public.fotki.com/jdoctor/2005_mam_events/pca_-_may_2005/sunday/_dsc2577.html

Including this one because I just really love this Elise. And found it easy to get in and out of, though I never got to try it out on the track. Yet. <g>
http://public.fotki.com/jdoctor/2005_mam_events/pca_-_may_2005/sunday/_dsc2095.html

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Found some pics I'm in from the Mustang Club Of Central Iowa event at MAM about a month ago.

No, I'm NOT catching him.


Think I posted this one earlier. Getting a tirely nearly airborne even with a passenger.


Apparently just passed by Paul Berg. He's a good 5 seconds a lap faster than me.


In the middle of a train.


All pics lifted from http://public.fotki.com/jdoctor/ who takes a ton of excellent pictures at that track.

Also, here's one taken by the Course Marshall this past Friday showing Sheridan, me, and Gary. To me, this picture so perfectly conveys that wonderful day. Three good friends just having a ball all day.


The Mustang crossing the start/finish line at MAM Sunday with passenger. Actually, I think this would be Gary's wife (my girlfriend/student) riding with me. Probably 100 mph at this point accelerating to 125 before the first turn.


The Scoob, probably on Saturday. Or could've been early Friday afternoon.

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Even with all wheel drive, I found the car "pushed" in corners when pressed to the limit in the dry with the traction control off.

All of the AWD cars I've been in have pushed pretty intensely, the Subaru WRX being perhaps the worst. It plows even worse than the Taurus SHO.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, I never bothered to try the traction control in the dry - only during the downpour at the track. In the dry, I can see how it would have inhibited the fun factor!

Even with all wheel drive, I found the car "pushed" in corners when pressed to the limit in the dry with the traction control off. The car feels more like a front driver than all wheel drive with the electronics off.

I did find that one could exceed what the Laws Of Physics would allow in the corners!


Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

I went and registered for the NASA event, not realizing it was the same weekend as RA. And also bought an old motorcycle in Omaha with the intention of picking it up when I'm at the NASA event.

I emailed the NASA event folks to pull out, though. I'm definitely doing both of those RA events.

Turns out there will be quite a few folks from down here going to RA for the Audi event, and I emailed one of them asking if he'd specifically ask for me as his instructor, since I've worked with him before and he's new to RA.

If he does, I won't be in as desperate need of your services getting me around the track. And it turns out that one of the other guys coming up is in exactly my boat. Experienced instructor, new to RA, and a bit nervous because he'll be instructing at it.

Interesting that the Passat's traction control would be so good.

When I drove Sheridan's car, I came in on the first lap and called him on the walkie-talkie to tell him the car was fuel-starving in the turns despite showing half a tank of fuel. Turned out it was the traction control. He told me how to turn it off, and the car suddenly got a whole bunch faster and wasn't trying to drive for me.

But the traction control systems have been evolving really rapidly and I'm sure the one in his 318ti is pretty crude compared to what the Passat's got.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, I think I mentioned that I was going to put on heavier rear springs on the Pumpkin Cobra. It has tended to "push" a little in the tigher corners while being mostly neutral on higher speed sweepers. My car has the springs that came with the early kits on it. Most of the series racers are now running significantly higher spring rates than came with the kits, however.

I purchased some 400# springs to replace the coil-overs that were on it. I thought the rears were 350# springs but when I removed them, I found they were only rated for 300#. I'd hoped to only go up 50# on each spring as I didn't want to upset the car's balance on the high speed turns.

Well, I installed the new springs this weekend and then did a frame height check. The car stood a tiny bit taller at the rear and my butt tells me the extra 100# rating makes it less street worthy! So, I adjusted ride height and then set about doing some other "tuning."

I'd weighed the car before, but never bothered to do corner weights. The reason is that I use the county's scales which are only accurate to +or- 20 lbs. I guess weighing trucks loaded with Salt isn't that precise a deal!

This time I decided to see just how my "cross weight" was on the car. There's room at the scale to drive single wheels onto the platform at a time. So, I weighed each corner of the car, each side, front axle and rear axle along with total weights. I was thankful that the weights added up! I also did the same weights with me out of the car as another point of reference.

Well, I found that the "cross weight" was about 40 pounds off. It was a bit heavy "Driver's rear to Passenger's Front." While this isn't off by much (after all the scales are not very accurate) it seemed to me that maybe if I fiddled a bit I could get it closer. The driver's side of the car is 1320# vs the passenger's 1220#. This is with a very full tank of gas and my 200# in the car. I don't think the difference is going to make any difference to my lap times.

I then took the car back to the shop and took a full turn out of the spring nut on the driver's rear shock. This has the effect of reducing the pressure that that corner of the car presents to the ground. It sure is nice to be able to make these finite adjustments compared to the old English production based sports cars I've always driven.

I took the car back to the scales and remeasured. The car's now

 
          LF            RF 
         560#          520# 
  
          LR            RR 
         760#          700#

So now the cross weights are 1260 vs 1280. While side to side weight didn't change, it dropped 20 pounds off the cross weight with me in the car and about 40# off the cross weight without me in the car. So, now the car should be nicely balanced for the next track event.

It remains to be seen if this stiffening of the back of the car is going to upset the overall handling. I'll know soon enough as I'll be up at R.A. on the weenend of Aug. 26-28 with loads of track time. With 500 pound springs on the fronts and 400 pound on the rear it will be interesting to see how it drives. Most of the competitors have gone to 600 or higher on the fronts and seem to keep 100 to 200 pounds less spring on the rears. Those things must ride like bricks!

More later after some track time!

Best regards, Tom

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Re: MAM...............
Sounds like it was a great weekend even if a bit damp for part of it. I sent you that NASA stuff just in case you couldn't make R.A. for some reason.

We had a similar experience at Mid-Ohio. It's a 2.4 mile course with 14 turn in hilly terrain. NASA's track time event at Mid-Ohio was a blast. Unfortunate weather delayed the start of the day with heavy rain and lightening. Once the electrical storm had passed it just rained until noon. However, about 9:30 AM all the groups started their rotation on the track. My daughters, Trish and Anne, (or Danica and Danica if you're a Bob Newhart fan) were in their Group 1 (for novice drivers) while I got to thrash the Passat W8 in Group 4 (advanced, no restrictions on passing). Both girls have had the two day Skip Barber school with skidpad training, accident avoidance and car control in the clinic. Neither has any real track time other than that, however. Both have been around several tracks with me as the driver and Anne had one lunch time touring session in my Taurus SHO years ago.

I'd offered to be an instructor about a month beforehand, but never heard anything specific in reply. Well, it turned out that I had two students assigned to me. That made for a very busy day!

My one student was in Group 2 (Ron L., age 63, from Worthington, OH, Nissan 300 ZX) which directly followed my Group 4 driving. So, I'd pull in from the track, get out of the car and give the keys to Trish. Then I'd hop in my student's car and ride around for another half hour! After that came group 1 (David S., age 28?, southern Ohio?, Fox body Mustang GT) and so I'd hop out of the Group 2 car and into my other student's car and ride for yet another half hour! After that I got a break before going back on the track again in Group 4.

In the AM, I drove the W8 first in the heavy rain. Well, I've really wondered if all the electronic crapola on the new cars is worth a darn. This was my first chance to test some of this stuff out. Antilock brakes have been around quite a while, but this Passat is the first car that I've ever driven that has a traction control over-ride on it. The Passat's also "all wheel drive" so it was a "first" in several categories for me on a closed course. Well, I have to say that I'm impressed.

In a rain heavy enough that at speed, the wipers would barely keep up, I could drive the snot out of the car and it behaved with amazing control, performance and grace. It made me look like the Rain Meister! If you didn't go into a corner too far beyond the Laws Of Physics you would drive the corner or series of corners as though the car was just plain planted on the track. You can hear the tires rumble a bit as the traction control allows mild amounts of slip, but it went where you pointed it and it held on course. Amazing.

During the last of my rain driving I turned off the traction control to see what the difference was. Well, the anti-lock brakes still functioned and having all wheel drive still made the car very drivable, but you had to concentrate all the time at a higher level. I'd say the car will do laps at about the same pace with the traction control on or off, but you don't need to think as much about the rain with it on.

Anne's Mini Cooper S performed well on its new Hankook tires. They're an "A" traction rated tire with full tread depth and did well in the wet and dry. Unfortunately because of my rather busy schedule I didn't get to ride or drive in Anne's car. She had said, "I don't know if my instructor likes me. He doesn't say much." I told her to tell him she wanted both positive and negative feedback on what she was doing. She did and he said she was doing well enough in the wet and following directions that he just had nothing much to say.

When the track dried out in the afternoon, she got the tires singing and found out just how effective the brakes on the car are when used properly. She and Trish battled a bit. The Passat would out accelerate the Mini down the straights, but Anne was all over the 4000 Lb Passat in the corners. Once Anne passed Trish, she easily out-distanced her through the twisty sections and Trish never caught her again. I think part of that is experience (Trish is 7 years younger than Anne), part is tires (the Passat's are mud and snow rated!) and part is the difference in mass (2400 lbs vs 4120 lbs). At Road America it might have been more even between the two.

Trish's instructor did a great job with her. She started timidly, but after riding as a passenger with me, she decided that it must be okay to hear the tires squeal and stand hard on the brakes. Her next session out she turned the wick up several notches. Both girls had huge smiles on their faces when they came in. It was a great stress reliever for Anne and one I think she needed (she's an ICU nurse in cardio-pulmenary). It was a great confidence builder for Trish and her overall concentration abilities will be enhanced because of it.

Here's some photo "proofs" you can glance through. Then you can view Monty the Mini and George W8 in ACTION!!!
http://markus.smugmug.com/NASA%20Ohio-Indiana%20Region%20Event%20Photos/100365

Mini Pictures # 12, 13, 14, 39, 40, 41, 42, 77, 114, 115, 117, 118, 132, 158, 159, 160, 161, 193, 217, and 260.

Apparently the guy liked the Mini better than the Passat! There's not as many of Trish. Here's Trish's photos:
71, 91, 107, 108, 155, 156, 157, 221, 222 and 250.

Unfortunately there's not a shot of the two cars in the same frame. I'd hoped there would be one when the two girls were chasing for the Big Pass.

The photographer really didn't like me! Only four pictures in HPDE 4:
61, 62, 187, and 246. 246 is probably the best shot.

A funny story about the photographer. He was also driving during the day in a Porsche Boxter. As he was handing out business cards in the grid, he said, "Who brings a Passat to such an event??? Hope he's not in my group!" Well, when the pretty driver of the car, my daughter, turned to him and said, "That would be me. I needed an Automatic to drive in the school.", apparently he blushed big time! Nothing like sticking one's foot down one's throat in front of a pretty lady!!! He also apparently didn't notice that it was a W8 either. That's one of the things I love about the car being a stealth hot rod. Turns out he was a better photographer than a driver as I held him off pretty well on the track!


This day at the track with NASA costs about $160 per person. They each got about 2 to 2.5 hours of seat time plus some classroom instruction plus an in-car instructor. Pretty reasonable! If it hadn't rained they probably would have gotten an extra 30 minutes on the track. I'm really quite impressed with NASA. This is the second event for me with them. The first was at R.A. in April. I drove the HPDE 4 group in the Cobra, they signed me off to race in their wheel to wheel group and then I raced in their 1 hr enduro as well. So, my track time for the weekend was over 7 hours by Sunday evening! They have autocross, wheel to wheel, time trials and their HPDE (High Performance Driving Experience) modes so there's a bit of something for everyone.
http://www.racenasa.com
As they expand into the Middle West I hope to get to race with them more.

I'm going back to R.A. for the Northwoods Shelby Club weekend. That's the weekend of Aug 26-28. Good friends, Tom and Lisa and their pals are always there with Mustangs, Cobras and usually a Tiger. This would have been a great weekend for you with the Mustang. They've opened up the weekend to "All Makes" now so you probably could have brought the Scoob, too.

At this event you get around 4 sessions of 30 minutes each on Friday and Sunday. So, that's four hours of track time for the weekend. On Saturday there's time trials, but I'm not doing those so I can even have some fun in between.

I'm looking forward to your visit in Sept. I've meant to forward a "resume" to you for the Audi Club days. I'll do that via email next.

I'll hang out with you at the Audi event as time permits and will plan on being there at the BMW event as an instructor/?. I'll hope to be able to show you around Elkhart Lake as well.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Ummmm, I'm really horrible with dates (which is why a valuable trait for an assistant here is attention to detail when it comes to managing my schedule -- don't have that now), but isn't that the same weekend we'll be at RA?

This weekend at MAM was a blast! It'll definitely go into the recordbooks as one of the best track weekends I've ever had.

Starting with there being exactly 3 of us who ran on Friday. Myself, Sheridan (adrnln) and Gary (to whom I wrote the gag email and copied here a while back pretending to have sold him the Mustang for his wife's use).

Sheridan and I do a lot of events (me more than Sheridan this year) and instruct at all or most of them, so the monkey on our back isn't really loud. Gary is just as into it as we are, but his work schedule only permits a few events a year, so the monkey on his back was a howler at full song.

He was a slave-driver Friday! We did a little over 200 miles on the track Friday, which works out to something like 90 laps, or about how much track time we get on a Saturday and Sunday combined.

We ran in the rain all Friday morning then it dried up after lunch, although with only 3 cars running, we weren't drying the track very quickly. Rain or shine, the pecking order is Sheridan, me, Gary. And not a huge gap between any two of us, so when we hit the track, and got the passes eventually done to put us in that order, we all could usually see each other, giving us that rare combination of cat-and-mouse and clean track. If I'm on Sheridan's back bumper, that's clean track because I probably get my best lap times trying to keep up with him.

Although sometimes Gary would keep us out there for half an hour or more. Then our gap on him would accumulate enough to become a lap. Nice of him to pull in and end one especially long session when Sheridan was ready to lap him and I was about 3 laps away from doing the same. <g>

Would've been interesting if he'd brought his WRX since he and I are completely unable to get away from each other when we're both driving those. He drove his E30 M3, so we had him outgunned just a little bit. When we're in the WRX's, you could tie a 10-foot rope to our bumpers and we'd never take the slack out of it.

Gary and his wife were my students for the weekend, Gary in his M3 (which I never rode in) and his wife in their WRX.

Gary's wife made wonderful progress and was a lot of fun to work with! She was very adamant that she was only doing 3 sessions per day. Ended up doing 4 both days. And on her next-to-last one Sunday, I told her I felt comfortable letting her solo the next time out if she wanted, secretly hoping she wouldn't want to. She was definitely ready but she was getting so much better so quickly, I knew the last session would be an especially fun ride. And she didn't disappoint. Was fun shifting modes on her from leading a nervous horse across water to being a whip-wielding jockey demanding more and more speed. She wasn't comfortable going solo yet, but I think by the end of that session she realized that she had gotten good enough that with the better tires we should've let Gary put on when he offered, and without 200 lbs of ballast in the passenger seat, she would've been doing a lot of passing.

If we'd been in control of the weather, we couldn't have possibly ordered up anything better than what nature decided to give us. It rained until early afternoon Saturday and was dry all day Sunday. Learning in the rain is so valuable! A lot of students (and some instructors) are really nervous about it, but as a former student of mine put it (Tony -- who was soloing all weekend, but really would've benefitted from having me in the passenger seat just one session, but was in the same run group as my student), rain is such a great amplifier. You really learn car control in it and even the subtle mistakes you're making get shown to you in large print.

I've already noticed that my fastest lap times are *always* when I'm on dry track for the first time after having nothing but wet track for a while. I think (and Sheridan would likely agree) that it's because it's the only time I don't over-drive the car. When I start getting really aggressive, like when I'm chasing Sheridan, I tend to increase my corner entry speeds and really abuse my tires. To the extent that they're heat-soaked and useless after several laps. Gary's wife ended up doing the same. That's how quickly she progressed. Damn, we really should've let Gary put the good tires on!

I'll post some pictures later that I've got on CD. Sheridan wanted to get a lot of action pictures of his car on the track, so he twisted my arm relentlessly until I agreed to drive his car for a few laps on Friday. I don't know how long he had to twist my arm, but it was measurable in nanoseconds.

I'd driven his car before with him in it, but this time I was by myself and it was a blast! That little 318ti is the most capable and *forgiving* car I've ever been in. I probably ended up doing about 10 laps in it, and as I learned its nature, I was starting to take tighter and tighter lines with it. Diving into turns way earlier than I can or should in either of my cars. I could've sworn I could hear the car saying to me in it's German accent "Go for it, brudder. I got your back."

I should've asked him to swap cars with me for a session. But perhaps not. Would've been embarassing to have him spank me in my WRX when it's all I can do to keep him in sight when I'm driving it.

Edit: You wouldn't know it if you just met Gary's wife (and maybe she doesn't even know it yet), but she's really hard-core. She rode with me in the instructor session in my Mustang and when we came in, we saw that Gary and Sheridan were both on the grid to run in the advanced session, so we pulled right in behind them and did two back-to-back sessions. That's pretty hard-core, especially in the passenger seat of the Mustang because Mustang passenger seats are absolutely the worst at speed. Especially when the Mustang's on Hoosiers.

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll make sure to get signed up. Seems someone else mentioned it to me recently and that they're in need of instructors.

Don't think I mentioned that when I was dropping off the Beemer at the shop Saturday, I ran across a familiar face. He said "Don't you drive the hell out of a Mustang at a couple of local tracks?" I confessed and it turned out he was a student of mine earlier this year or late last year. Drove a Saab. The only one I've ever instructed in.

Don't remember the model. But I remember being pleasantly surprised when I drove it. It acted more RWD than it had any right to. Little turbo-charged 4-banger front-drive. Despite being somewhat new to the hobby but not a complete novice, he was the fastest in his run group.

I don't know if it's luck or skill on my part or what, but more often than not, my students end up doing an inordinate amount of passing, resulting in my asking them to make sure they're first on the grid so we don't get traffic to deal with until late in the session.

Haven't heard back from the Audi club yet whether I'll be instructor or student at RA. Won't know until Monday, I guess, since I'm headed up to MAM for a Porsche event tomorrow. Which means a lot of my buds will be there, which means I need to get the cooler stocked up on Guinness.

I need to try to remember to bring all the Wimmer's brats and dogs I've got in the freezer, too, since I'd like to supply Sheridan's Grille this time around before these dogs get too old.

Sheridan, if you're reading this, could you give me a call tomorrow afternoon/evening to see if I remembered the brats before you go buy some?

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, FYI: NASA is going to MAM.......

https://www.nasaproracing.com/nasa_event/show/?event_id=281

http://www.racenasa.com/

In case you can't make Road America for some reason. I instructed with them this last weekend at Mid-Ohio and enjoyed myself very much. A report will follow soon.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Yeah, my car definitely runs out of steam past 5k and it's generally not worthwhile to chase it past that. Nobody's home. Unfortunately, the lights are barely on when you upshift into 5th and are only turning 3.5k against such a huge mechanical disadvantage.

Don't know if I mentioned that the car feels a lot more powerful after replacing everything from the rotors to the plugs. I'd really like to get it on a dyno again. Seat of the pants dyno says I found about 10-20 of the lost horses.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, With 3.73 gears it pretty much will mandate you using 5th gear on most of Elkhart Lake's straights. With 3.55s it's "users choice" if your engine's up to the 6000 rpm task.

The stock cam in the 5.0 breaths okay to about 5K but then seems to become labored. I'm running the E cam which extends the useful power band a bit.

You'll probably still use 5th from #3 to #5 and from the Kink to Canada Corner (#12). Not sure about from #14 to #1.

Brakes are used with gusto at this track. Heavy into #5, #8 and Canada Corner. Reasonable cooling spells in between except 5 to 8.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

The poor soul had me pointing at turn-ins and yelling, "Wait, wait, wait! NOW turn!"

LOL

Know that one well. My phrase is "Wait for it... Wait for it... Turn!"

I can probably be there for your first 1/2 day or day with the Audi Club. If they will accept me as an instructor for the day, I'll do that. I can send them my resume' if that will help. At least I can show you around the track and get you pointed in the right direction for each corner. Then you won't have to use LanSat to find your way around!

I'll send you the chief instructor's email address tomorrow and also tell him about your offer.

And I thank you profusely! I get two sessions before I get students, and have no doubt that you can get me up to speed in those two sessions, and would hate to cut into another instructor's fun time to nursemaid me.

You, I don't mind inconveniencing. <g>

6k in 4th on 3.55's? I think that's right at 130 mph. Your car's a LOT lighter than mine, so maybe 3.73's won't be as bad as I was thinking. Still, I think the car would be happier at MAM on 3.55's, so if I can locate the gears, I'll change them this weekend.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Yes, RA's about as smooth as they get. I noticed a bit of a hiccup on the inside of Turn 1 and heard there was some frost there that didn't settle much after the winter. There's also a bump at the exit of Turn 8, but neither upset the car much.

What is amazing is that the track's only been repaved ONCE in 50 years. There's been a little patching, but most of the surface is in excellent shape.

Also, the best track food in motorsports is there at R.A. I don't know how many of the concession stands will be open for a club event, however. All the concessions are run by charities like Rotary, various churches, etc.

If it's hot, we'll take a swim in Elkhart Lake after racing, so bring a suit.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

It sure does LOOK right in the turn there. And you've got that left front pretty close to airborne. Swaybars and you'd definitely be 3-wheeling through that one.

You're rolling less than the Mustang and *way* less than the WRX.

Is RA a pretty smooth track? HPT isn't and the heavy springs in the Mustang are actually a bit of a problem because of it. The whole car gets upset in many spots.

I thought BIR was really smooth. Until I took the Mustang out.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Re: crossed up arms.....
In that photo I posted earlier, you can just see my orange glove on the wheel. That's my RIGHT HAND and my forearms are crossed.

On a rare occasion I'll release my left hand in a hard left corner and grab an extra handful of the wheel, but I can only think of a couple of hairpins where I've had to do that.

Re: hands and thumbs.........
I usually keep my thumbs on the cross bars or on the wheel to "feel" anything I can in the way of feedback.

When my arms are crossed over as discussed in a left turn, my left thumb usually ends up hooked over the wheel's cross bar.

Funny you mentioned that!

Best regards, TV

[OldAIMGuy]

Thanks for the good stories, Bob,
Actually I wish this guy had been my student. He was there as a spectator for the Spec. Miata race and my friend Pete Wilson who was driving in it. He's in law school and is working in the court house where Pete is usually a defense attorney.

Nice kid. Smart enough to do it right, but with a load of bad habits he needs to unlearn first! This was just the lunchtime tour for street cars. Yous pays yo' $10 bucks and Takes yo' chances!!!

He's been to several race weekends with Pete and I figured he'd absorbed something by osmosis. We'll get him in a proper school probably this Fall and he'll learn a lot.

The poor soul had me pointing at turn-ins and yelling, "Wait, wait, wait! NOW turn!" for several laps and then Pete got in and did the same thing to him! At least he heard the same thing from both of us.
---------------------------------------
I've submitted my app. for instructing with BMW Club and they've said "Welcome." In my info I mentioned the Cobra, but maybe BMW people don't know its a roadster. I can always bring the Passat instead. I'll call the gal I know with the club and get that clarified before hand. They may forgive the topless nature since it has full roll cage and side impact bars.
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I can probably be there for your first 1/2 day or day with the Audi Club. If they will accept me as an instructor for the day, I'll do that. I can send them my resume' if that will help. At least I can show you around the track and get you pointed in the right direction for each corner. Then you won't have to use LanSat to find your way around!
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Most of R.A. is "big country road" in nature. Not really any tricky double apex corners or esses. I think you'll find the fastest part of the track for the Stang will be between the Kink and Canada Corner. It's slightly downhill with "turns" that only an Indycar notices. If you get good exit speed from the Kink, you can get up a pretty good head of steam by Canada. The other fast section is from #3 to #5. It's level to downhill for about 3/4 the distance and then just as you crest a hill and start to descend, you need to get all your braking and shifting done for Turn 5. It also happens to be the slowest corner on the track. So, if 3-5 isn't the fastest section of the track for your car, it's the greatest speed change!
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The most common mistake for new drivers at R.A. is over-braking for Turn 1. It's a very fast right hand sweep. It's fast enough that I can take it at the top end of 3rd or in 4th. Some of that depends on traffic. Some depends upon track and tire conditions. The car's more stable at the top of 3rd than in 4th as the throttle is more effective.
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The Kink is a really great turn (bend might be a better description). It's fast and needs to be done with one's brain fully engaged. I brake for it to a specific RPM at the turn-in. It has some serious pucker factor to it. I run the corner at 4400 rpm in 4th gear to the apex and then lean on it all the way to Canada. I can run the distance in 4th at 6000 constant, but usually upshift to 5th. (my car's using a 3.55:1 rear gear and stock box ratios including the 0.89 OD.

I've watched spec Miatas run it flat out and cars with aerodynamic improvements will take it very fast, too. My way is to get cautiously to the apex and then pretty much full on the gas from there to the exit. Some people take it faster, but then have to nurse it to the exit. I feel my way works just as well and I find my car doesn't hit the concrete at 100 mph as often!

In my opinion full throttle from the apex is faster because the true "exit" of the turn is still about 150'-200' further down the road. The little bit of extra speed that can be achieved past the apex by going in faster isn't justified if you have to hold back all that extra distance. My way, I make the "straight" an extra 150-200' longer. I figure, "If you got the ponies, let 'em run."

In a momentum car like the spec. Miata or an A-H Sprite you have to drive it differently or your top speed to Canada will be much lower.
---------------------------------
You'll find R.A. an easy track to instruct. Everything's straight forward and nothing "cute." Apparently the track designers didn't own a French Curve! (thank goodness!).

The biggest thing about R.A. is its very length. It takes time to get the rhythm. It comes with seat time. There's some subtle transitions across the track between #3 and #5 to get pointed into the brake zone properly. Turn 14 is paramount to good lap times. #3 is also important for the same reason.

There's a lot of full throttle driving. The only part throttle sections are the Carossel, Kink, Turn 13 (Billy Mitchell Bridge underpass) and Turn 7. Other than those, you're hard on the gas or hard on the brakes.
----------------------------------------------

You're gonna have FUN!!!

Best regards,
Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Hope you'll take a ride with me at R.A. in the Pumpkin Racer in Sept. I'll have my Helmet to Helmet intercomm with me, so can talk you through the line and all.

Which of the events that I'm attending at RA will you be attending? I was thinking it was the BMW event, but am almost positive they wouldn't allow the Pumpkin. Hence my offer to let you use my cars. However, if they'll let you use it, I'm planning to ride with you. We can use your communicator or mine. I think you'll hear my shrieks of terror equally well through either one.

If you're going to the Audi event, I need to get a quick email sent to the chief instructor letting him know you've volunteered to teach me the track and to ignore my previous email.

Think "Late Apex" and you'll probably do well. (actually, think "Very Late Apex")

The only time I've ever put two tires off the track in 9 years was (embarassingly enough) during a parade-lap-speed follow-the-leader session my first time at MAM. Very first lap. Turn 3, which looks like a carousel when you enter it, but turns into a really fun decreasing radius about 2/3rds of the way in. If you don't know it's there, by the time you notice it it's too late. My effective apex was so early that sucker spit me right out on the exit.

Late apexing is a kind of mantra for me, although there are a few turns where I intentionally take them way early. 12 at HPT and the 7-8 combo at MAM come to mind.

I emailed the chief instructor this afternoon for the Audi event I'll be attending Monday and Tuesday of that week asking that, if they're not short on instructors, they move me to the student ranks.

I was more than a little freaked out by BIR at first and would not have been a good instructor until I'd gotten at least that first day under my belt.

The thing that freaked me out about BIR was the speed of the first two turns. We can't get even CLOSE to that kind of speed at HPT and MAM.

BIR is 3/4 mile longer than MAM yet my lap times in the Mustang were only about 20 seconds longer. Seriously fast track.

Since I've never been on RA, I'm more than a little concerned about being in the passenger seat on only my 3rd entry to the track.

On the other hand, when dealing with novices, as you've found, you're not so much teaching them the track (initially) as just plain teaching them how to drive. Braking, entry, apex, exit, keeping both hands on the wheel, proper seat position, etc. Improving track performance comes later. When looked at in that light, it's easy to make a case that because I'm an experienced instructor, I know the basics intimately (of instructing as well as driving) and could instruct a first-timer whether or not I've ever turned a lap on the track we're on. Hmmmm.... Really have been vacillating on this since nearly wetting myself at BIR. On one hand, I want to know the track well enough to not get a student in trouble, but on the other hand, it's very unintimidating teaching most novices it's arguable that no matter how unfamiliar the venue might be to me, much of what I'll teach a novice isn't really venue-specific on their first day, and by the time they're ready to learn some of the intricacies of that particular track, I should have it pretty well figured out.

It's the intermediates and advanced that're scary, especially if you don't have the track down like a video game. The intermediates more than the advanced. I tend to trust the advanced student and my work with them is typically on any variations I feel might gain them a tenth or two. The intermediates are in a scary place because they drive well enough to be able to get into trouble quickly, but usually lack the experience to get out of trouble once they're into it.

Two weekends ago during lunchtime touring I rode with a novice driver. He's logged lots of time on video games and really wants to drive on the track.

We talked about entry, apex, exit and how RA is constructed. I'm glad he has years to improve!!! It wasn't scary riding with him, but I didn't realize just what "novice" means!!! He was driving with just his left hand while constantly resting his right on the shifter; in corners and on the straights! His seat was adjusted so that it would have been uncomfortable to have both hands on the wheel at the same time.

I've had a number of younger students with their seats reclined like you described. Drives me nuts that my son drives this way despite my constantly lecturing him that he can't really *control* a vehicle that way.

The first thing I have any novice student do when they get in their car on the grid is position their seat so they can reach the pedals comfortably, including the dead pedal, and lay their wrists over the top of the steering wheel and let their hands relax. If there's little or no bend in their elbows (I prefer slight bend) in this position and their back is still against the seat, the position is correct.

Most of the clubs I work with have the instructor drive the student's car first, so I illustrate this for them, which also has the benefit of them getting into the car with their seat in a more correct position.

Sounds like this would've showed your student that his seat was reclined too much.

I also stress that unless the shifter is being moved at the time, it isn't to be touched. Both hands on the wheel at all times except when actively shifting. Even on the straights. Making two-handed steering a habit they (hopefully) take back to the streets.

I have yet to encounter a student for whom a quick "Two hands" rebuke occasionally wasn't enough to do the trick, but I'm already prepared for that contingency.

A friend told me that he doesn't steer with his hands; he steers with his thumbs. His hands are wrapped around the wheel, but when he turns, he's pulling down on the appropriate spoke with his thumb. "Pulling the car into the turn" is the terminology he uses.

I've tried it and prefer thinking (especially getting feedback) through all parts of my hands rather than just my thumbs, but if I encounter a student who is especially bad about one-handed driving, I'll make them steer with their thumbs.

This approach also wouldn't work in the WRX, which takes a LOT of steering input. I don't shuffle-steer (and don't believe in it), so in that car I'll often have my arms completely crossed and hitting each other because the wheel needs 180 degrees of movement.

Perhaps if I'd shuffle it, my arms wouldn't be as sore. :)

Even when I pointed out the "turn-in" cones, he missed them and turned in early, making two corners out of each one. So, for most of us R.A. has 14 corners, for him, there were 28!!!

Got a trick for that one, too.

Unless the turn requires it (like turn 3 at MAM, which actually doesn't if you're at very high speed because you can throttle-steer into the decreasing radius), I have a rule I impose on any student I find moving the wheel too much.

On every turn, you get only one input. Mid-turn adjustments are allowed only when really needed and if we did a mid-turn adjustment, we know whether we need more or less input the next time we enter the turn.

As the hour rolled along, he did settle down, so maybe it was more "nerves" than lack of understanding. He finally was finding the apexes and making a good arc of the corner, but because he wasn't going very fast, he just couldn't get the hang of letting the car all the way out to the exits.

Actually, I largely ignore exit cones but tell the novice student that they mark where the car should naturally exit the turn once they're up to speed. It depends on the placement, though.

Problem is, (and my wife exhibited this problem during parade laps when I rode with her at HPT) novices often feel they have to hit every cone, including the exit, so they'll hit the apex, then change the steering input to hit the exit.

My rule of thumb on exits is that you unwind the wheel only as the car or an approaching turn dictates. If you're not going fast enough that the tires are howling and begging you to relieve them of some lateral g's, no reason to lengthen the turn by steering toward the exit cone.

Besides, if a student, IMO, is hitting the exit cone at low speeds, he's likely going to have trouble at higher speeds when he has drift playing a part in where the car is going, in addition to where he's steering it.

Another thing that confuses them is that there are turns (turn 5 at HPT comes to mind) where the apex cone gives the wrong idea. In that turn, at higher speeds, one has to think of the apex cone not as the part of the gator your right tires should kiss, but as the point where an imaginary line is going straight across the track. In that turn, I apex on that imaginary line, but I'm a good half a car width away from the gator. Most turns, the apex marker should be thought of as a point at the edge of the track, but sometimes it should be thought of as the beginning of a line and a painted mark on the track itself would actually be a better indicator of where to apex.

A lotta fun working with a novice, isn't it.

I've actually found it to "keep me honest" in my own driving because they don't know things that you and I consider intuitive, and teaching them these things makes us think more about these things when we're driving.

And sometimes you get *real* lucky. Like when I had a student in a 540i at MAM suddenly lift the throttle in turn 3, which is definitely a no-no, but much to my surprise, the maneuver had us perfectly lined up for the decreasing radius. I had him get back in the gas and we got through that turn with only one wheel input. And ever since, I've always just done an abrupt lift there and have my intermediate and advanced students do the same.

The same student also took me for my first out-of-track experience.

He'd ridden with a guy in an M-coupe during lunchtime parade laps, and while we were approaching turn 12 in his next session, he suddenly said he wanted to show me something the guy in the M-couple did.

He went through 12 with only a throttle lift, then hit the brakes hard entering 13.

I happen to do this and teach it to my advanced students, but there's a bit of a difference. When you do this, the car is free of lateral g's for a VERY short time before entering 13, so you have to wait for that exact millisecond, then give it a lot of "Whoa!" input, and trailbrake your way into the turn.

He didn't know this. He only knew that the guy in the M-coupe used no brakes in 12.

So, after having spun our way into the mud, I asked him to reflect for a moment and tell me what he'd just learned.

His first answer was a good first answer. "This isn't an M-coupe."

I told him that though it wasn't an M-coupe, so couldn't do the maneuver at anywhere near the speed the M could, it could still do it, and it's generally a good idea that if you want to try something new you've seen or heard about, bring it up with your instructor at some point before heading into the turn. <g>

I then asked him why, besides not being an M-coupe, we were covered in mud while watching approaching cars through our windshield. He didn't know. The reason was that he hit the brakes hard while carrying his full quota of lateral g's exiting turn 12.

Looking forward to seeing you up there.

Please don't get me muddy or facing the wrong way. :)

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, I'll be trying out some heavier rear springs on the Pumpkin in a couple of weeks. The car is pretty much neutral in higher speed corners with just a slight "push." The push is more noticable in the tighter, slower corners.

Most of the series drivers have gone to very heavy springs both front and rear. Remember this car has NO Anti-Sway bars - front or rear. So, the only way to stiffen the car's roll is to add spring rate. Most are running 600 to 700# front springs and 450 to 600# springs on the rear. By comparison, my car has the original set of springs that came with the kit, 500# fronts and 350# rears. To me, the car drives and feels very "vintage" with just the right amount of body roll. Apparently most of the series drivers are used to more modern "anti roll" feel and have made gokarts out of their cars with the heavy springs.


Closing on Turn 5 Apex, the tightest corner on the track.

I'm only adding an additional 50# of spring to the rear end. My hope is that it will help balance the car in the slower, tighter turns while not doing anything evil to the higher speed handling in the sweepers. With Coil-Overs it's easy enough to make a change if I'm not happy with the results.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Best regards, Tom

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Thanks for the feedback on the T-5 box mods. Those guys have always been very friendly and informative when I've spoken with them.

Hope you'll take a ride with me at R.A. in the Pumpkin Racer in Sept. I'll have my Helmet to Helmet intercomm with me, so can talk you through the line and all. Think "Late Apex" and you'll probably do well. (actually, think "Very Late Apex")

Two weekends ago during lunchtime touring I rode with a novice driver. He's logged lots of time on video games and really wants to drive on the track.

We talked about entry, apex, exit and how RA is constructed. I'm glad he has years to improve!!! It wasn't scary riding with him, but I didn't realize just what "novice" means!!! He was driving with just his left hand while constantly resting his right on the shifter; in corners and on the straights! His seat was adjusted so that it would have been uncomfortable to have both hands on the wheel at the same time. He looked like he was cruising the Hamburger Stand!!

Even when I pointed out the "turn-in" cones, he missed them and turned in early, making two corners out of each one. So, for most of us R.A. has 14 corners, for him, there were 28!!!

As the hour rolled along, he did settle down, so maybe it was more "nerves" than lack of understanding. He finally was finding the apexes and making a good arc of the corner, but because he wasn't going very fast, he just couldn't get the hang of letting the car all the way out to the exits. He promised to practice that on his video games!


Nice kid. Hope he wasn't too frustrated that he won't come back. He has athletic talent, so he should do well given some practice time.

This coming weekend I'll be with my daughters at their first HPDE (High Performance Driving Experience) event sponsored by NASA. They've both had the 2 day Skip Barber school, but are both lacking in seat time. I may be instructing there or may just be there for joy driving. In any case, it will be in my Pedestrian Passat W8, not the Pumpkin. They'll each get 2 1/2 to 3 hours of seat time if everyone stays "on time." That will solidify a lot of things for them as far as what they've been taught so far.

They'll both be starting in the "novice" group where one has a full time instructor and also very restrictive passing. I may ride along with the girls and their instructor, but hope I'm not chosen as one of the instructors for them!!! Who wants to listen to "Dad" tell them anything!!! Much better if it's a stranger, they might actually listen!

To paraphrase the old Bob Newhart Show:
"This is my daughter Danica and my other daughter Danica."

I'll give you the full low-down on their experience next week.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Just got off the phone with them.

In their own words "5th is a mother to replace".

They've got two of the .90's but were of the opinion that it wouldn't do me a lot of good if I have to upshift halfway down the straight at BIR, but it could be workable if I change the rearend to 3.55. They've got nothing in stock taller than .90 until you get to .73, which would be just as useless as the .68 in it.

They don't have any trannies in stock ready to ship with the .90 either.

Guess what I'll do is see if I can locate my 3.55 gearset and put them in, and just live with that since I really expect this car will only see track use until late next year when the 2007 Mustang GT500 Shelby Cobra is supposed to be out.

Besides, the cost and labor to make the Mustang's 5th gear usable is a substantial chunk of what it'd take to turn the WRX into a 365-hp firebreather.

BTW, speaking of the WRX, I put a new set of gForce TA/KD tires on it for BIR and got 225/45R17 instead of 215's. I won't know until I'm on more familiar turf whether the KD's stick better than the KDW's I was using, but at least they got nicely scrubbed down without the chunking I was getting from the KDW's.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, I just noticed that I unintentionally grubbed Post 200!

Under their JT5CR box description they show a 0.90 5th gear, so I would guess they sell them separately. Give them a call. I've always learned more than I needed to know when I've talked to them. Let them know what your application is and they'll be happy to help out. Since you're not running Godzilla Horsepower, they may have a relatively inexpensive solution for you.

BTW, a lighter flywheel on the Jags really brightened them up quite a bit under power. My street Jag's flywheel is light enough that when I depress the clutch pedal, the idle drops a bit.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

I'm seeing the retainer there but not a kit to change 5th gear. Do they sell it?

I downloaded their RPM calculator and .90 or .83 look ideal. More likely the .90. That'd have the car topping out close to 150 mph rather than the 200 it's currently geared for and impossible to achieve with its aerodynamics and power.

I think I know where my spare racing tranny is. Just need to dig it out and check 5th's ratio. I'm almost positive it has to be stock, but would expect it to be reinforced. If it turns out to be .68, I'll tear it down enough to see if it's got the good retainer and if it does, it'll be the tranny that'll get the .90 upgrade. It came with the racecar and (supposedly) was rebuilt by a builder who only does race trannies and it's probably only got about a thousand or so miles on it from loaning it to a nephew until he could get his rebuilt.

While I've got the tranny off, it'd be a good idea to replace the clutch. And if I'm gonna replace the clutch, a light flywheel sure does seem attractive and that'd be the right time to replace it.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, If your current Mustang gearbox is "stock" then it probably has a 0.68 Overdrive gear for 5th. Most of the FOX body cars did. I don't remember just how many choices for OD gears are available, but I know there was at least a 0.90, 0.80 and 0.75.

The reinforcing is actually just a more stout bearing retainer for the 5th gear shaft. I found the site that describes it:
http://www.5speeds.com/t5.htm

Next time I have the tranny out of the race car, it's getting one of these kits even if I don't change the gear ratio on 5th. It just makes sense when the only times I'm in 5th gear are when the pedal's to the metal.

You'll note that 5speeds.com also has some nice gear sets for these boxes. Half way between standard helical and straight cuts.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Yes, I'd very much like that web address.

I've got an extra T-5 for the racecar but if I remember right, SCCA rules wouldn't have permitted it getting any reinforcement or gearing changes. But I'll still check to see if 5th might just happen to be shorter than .75:1.

[OldAIMGuy]

Hi Bob, Re: 5th Gear Change........

The over drive gear can be changed. There's a relation to the ratio of 1st gear, and I think it's inverse if I remember right.

In my old Jag race car I ran a 0.90 OD 5th in the T-5 box. In my street Jag we had the trans built with a 0.75 OD. With 3.55:1 rear gears, that comes to just under 30mph/1000 rpm (2150 rpm @ 60mph in 5th).

If you do change out 5th gear, there's a very nice bearing retainer that can be installed to make the OD gear and shaft much more durable. So, if you're going to make it more usable, it makes sense to make it stronger as well. I have the web address for those parts at the office if you decide to look into it.

Sounds like you had some fun. I think you'll enjoy R.A. also. It's like a big country road.

While you're reviewing the R.A. video, you should take time to watch La Carrera Panamericana. Maybe you'll catch a glimpse of our XK140 Jag somewhere in there. Of all the racing I've done, that single even was the most challenging, interesting and educational.

Best regards, Tom

[Bob Zumbrunnen]

Had a lot of fun over the weekend, especially Monday, when I was able to get on the track about 8 times. 25 minutes on, 25 off.

Gave the Mustang another chance and though I really hate how tall 5th is (wonder if I can just put a different 5th in the tranny), it was a hoot having real stiction in the turns. Reeled in a lot more cars with that one.

I did get a bit of a talking-to on Sunday. It'd been reported by the corner gang that I was ignoring the passing flag.

My answer was that if they said I did, I must've, and would be more diligent, but also that track etiquette is a real big deal to me and though I could imagine not noticing a passing flag (corner stations are a bit oddly located from the perspective of a driver trying to see them), I *never* miss a car in my mirrors.

Well, turned out to be two things.

1. This club isn't used to the really tight technical tracks and to them being back 100 yards means you're close enough for a pass. Down here, even among students but especially among instructors, the "I want around you" distance is just a car-length or two. Or, among instructors, when your front bumper is even with their door. <g>

2. The corner worker was out of his mind. Ended up having that one proven twice later. Once when he showed the passing flag to a car in front of me who was definitely faster than me and I was only catching when he caught traffic. The second time when he showed me the passing flag because, yes, there was a car behind me a few car lengths, but he was back there because I'd passed him on the straight just before the end of the one the corner worker was on.

In the first instance, the car in front of me dutifully pulled to the right and hit his right turn signal and I (correctly as that driver later told me) pulled to the right along with him, hit my right turn signal, and pointed frantically for him to get back on line because both of us knew he was the faster car. Besides, I was learning a lot following him, and as I tell my students (part of my being so anal about good track etiquette), I was learning a lot more from him in my windshield than I'd have learned having him in my mirrors.

In the second instance, when I came back around a lap later and the other car was several hundred feet behind me, the corner worker just shook his head. No idea what that meant. I do hope that as the laps piled up and the distance between us grew, the corner worker did the math and figured out I was faster and only had the other guy on my butt because I'd just passed him. It's not like I would've expected the guy to "surrender" and coast through the next set of turns just because I'd passed him. He was doing as anyone would do after a pass. Try to keep up, figure out what's being done differently, and try not to let that gap grow too fast, if at all.

Anyway, fun track. I'd like to get up there maybe once every other year. The speed is definitely different. A different kind of adrenalin rush. And I was a bit of a wimp in turns 1 and 2, but few cars were faster than me in the more technical 3 through 10. I was like I'd watch them pull away from me the first 4600 feet of the track, then when we got back into the turns in the woods, it was like "Now you're in my world, dude." That's where I did most of my passing. Rarely on the front straight. Neither car was a match for most of these Audis when it came to collecting miles per hour.

I sure wouldn't want it to be my home track, though. It really made me even more grateful to have two very excellent and very technical tracks right in my own back yard. Well, that, and the 10-hour trip made even the 3 1/2 to MAM seem like my own back yard.

Both cars held together and performed well. I wish I'd brought the usual complement of tools because the Mustang really needed a lot more negative camber for the first two turns and the last two, but it did pretty well. Aside from the annoyance of having to wrestle it into 5th, only to have it barely accelerate. Oh, and I was having to hit 5th barely halfway down the front straight.

Kinda different the first time you shift into 4th wondering if it's gonna be a money shift. <g> Never was. My wimpiness plus the car's scrubbing off of speed through one put me right at 5k rpm on the downshift to 4th entering turn 2.

Looking forward to seeing you at RA.

I'm going to contact the Audi club and ask how strapped for instructors they are. I'm registered as an instructor for both events, but the more I thought about it, especially when I considered how much I would've disliked instructing at BIR my first time out, the more I've decided I want to be an advanced student at the Audi event at RA then go ahead and instruct for the BMW event the following weekend.

Really looking forward to getting onto one of my home tracks (MAM) the weekend after this coming one. BIR really helped me appreciate how much MAM demands of you for good lap times.

BTW, apparently I was pulling 2:15's in the Mustang. No idea in the Subaru. If my math's right, that works out to an average speed of 75 mph. That should give you an idea of just how much of that track is spend at speeds well over a buck. A friend who was also there for the first time was turning 1:58's, or a little better than 90 mph average. I don't feel ashamed of my lap times compared to his considering he was driving a Z06 with a few mods and Hoosier Viper Racing League tires. He was easily one of the 2 or 3 fastest cars on the track.

And, like me, he'd observed that since folks in that club apparently aren't accustomed to tracks like HPT and MAM, which is why I did the most catching up in the braking zones. Was kind of ironic that half of Saturday was spent running the students through a wet slalom, lane change, and threshhold braking excercises, but most of the instructors weren't threshhold braking on the track. Perhaps they know something I don't about that kind of speed and threshhold braking and what it can do to one's brakes, but I never had any brake problems. Many of them, however, were frequently bleeding them and complaining how cooked their brakes were getting. I still maintain that problem isn't as bad if you use your brakes harder but for less time.

[OldAIMGuy]

Good morning Bob, Thanks for the report on BIR. I've heard it's fast and furious. I'm glad you didn't take the time to look at the speedo heading into Turn 1 in the 'Stang!!!!



Looks like I'll be at R.A. for at least part of the week you'll be visiting here. I'll probably "commute" some of the time from home and some time from the Osthoff.

Best regards, Tom