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What would happen if the Taliban won???
http://www.jalc.com
Lazarus
Finally - someone gets it!
http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/78/hamascomplaint.htm
Have fun...
http://www.fieler.com/terror/
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
No not the end. President Bush said we would not stop there. All terrorism throughout the world must be stopped. It would seem to me in order to kill a weed you must first kill its root....
We have yet to see what that means specifically. If it means he attacks groups that have never committed a terrorists act but just are thinking about it, I might have a problem with that. If it means going after groups who have committed terrorists acts, then I support that. But let's wait and see what his intentions are and exactly how he plans to deal with each situation. So far, I'm impressed with the way his administration is handling this, and especially impressed with Powell.
I have enjoyed this exchange and am looking forward to further. I hope you have as well.
I always enjoy an intelligent and civil conversation. Look forward to your return.
Sara : )
"I don't know what your point is"
I have several but have to run now. My truck is ready to be picked up from the shop.Be back this afternoon.
"bin Laden commitment the acts of terrorism period end of story."
No not the end. President Bush said we would not stop there. All terrorism throughout the world must be stopped. It would seem to me in order to kill a weed you must first kill its root....
I have enjoyed this exchange and am looking forward to further. I hope you have as well.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
I don't know the technicalities of the law as to exactly when someone can be picked up for that type of planning. It seems to me it would be a problem to arrest people for thinking about a crime or even putting plans down for it. For example, I had a friend who realized his local bank had a security issue. He mapped out a detailed planned on how to thwart their security system and then turned those plans over to the bank manager. He had no intention of actually carrying out the crime. As far as I know, you can plan a crime all you want but not be arrested until you act on it. There might be some exceptions, as in the stalking laws.
I don't know what your point is... bin Laden commitment the acts of terrorism period end of story.
Sara
The followers of the Nation Of Islam believe in (all quotes taken from their homepage or their publications):
...one God (Allah) and that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W.Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long awaited 'Messiah' of the Christians and the 'Mahdi' of the Muslims...
However, the Qur`an states in chapter 4, verse 36, "Serve Allah, and join not Any partners with Him; ... ". And according to a hadith narrated by Masruq, in Sahih Bukhari, 'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says (in 6:103), 'No vision can grasp Him.'...".
The followers of the Nation Of Islam further believe "in the resurrection of the dead--not in physical resurrection--but in mental resurrection. We also believe that the so-called Negroes are most in need of mental resurrection; therefore, they will be resurrected first." But the Qur`an states in chapter 20, verse 55, "From the earth did We Create you, and into it Shall We return you, and from it shall We bring you out once again." Even more pointedly, the Qur'an also states in 64:7,
The Unbelievers think that they will not be raised up (for Judgement). Say: "Yea, by my Lord, Ye shall surely be Raised up: then shall ye Be told (the truth) of All that ye did. And that is easy for Allah."
Besides the above two differences, the followers of the Nation of Islam also believe in other things contrary to Islam as defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah, such as:
[We, the Black Muslims, believe] "in the truth of the Bible, but we believe that it has been tampered with and must be reinterpreted so that mankind will not be snared by the falsehoods that have been added to it".
The problem with this belief: The true Prophet of Islam ordered Muslims to neither accept the Bible nor reject it - certainly there was no mention of reinterpretation.
"That we who declare ourselves to be righteous Muslims, should not participate in wars which take the lives of humans. We do not believe this nation should force us to take part in such wars, for we have nothing to gain from it unless America agrees to give us the necessary territory wherein we may have something to fight for".
The problem with this belief: The Qur'an and Sunnah are crystal clear on the necessity of going to war when the situation demands it.
The Nation of Gods and Earths (5% Nation of Islam)
The Nation of Gods and Earths (5% Nation of Islam) is apparently an offshoot of the so-called Nation of Islam. Like its parent, this group's beliefs clearly identify it as being fundamentally outside the pale of Islam. Specifically, and we quote (from their homepage):
The original man is the Asiatic Blackman, the maker, the owner, the cream of the planet Earth, father of civilization, God of the Universe.
...the blackman is god and his proper name is ALLAH. Arm, Leg, Leg, Arm, Head.
This is in clear contradiction with one of the essential axioms of Islam, namely that Allah (God) is Creator and all else (including men - asiatic blacks or otherwise) is created. In chapter 25, verse 54 of the Qur'an, Allah says that He has created man, therefore it is logically impossible for man to be Allah.
The second quote above is a prime example of a tendency of the "Nation of Gods and Earths" to conjure up beliefs that are, to a large extent, highly confused. Some examples of these beliefs that have nothing to do with Islam are "supreme mathematics and alphabet", an evil person named Yacob, a prophet named W. D. Fard, and a belief that black people are superior in some way.
The true Prophet of Islam refuted this last racist belief in his Farewell Address,
O people! Verily your Lord is one and your father is one. All of you belong to one ancestry of Adam and Adam was created out of clay. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a non-Arab over an Arab; nor for white over the black nor for the black over the white except in piety. Verily the noblest among you is he who is the most pious.
For a deeper expose of this group and its parent (the Nation of Islam), the interested reader might wish to examine the autobiography of the late Malik Al-Shabaz (Malcolm X).
The Ahmadiyya/Qadiani Movement
The Ahmadiyya Movement, which originated in the Indian subcontinent under the patronage of the British colonialists, espouses beliefs which leave no doubt as to their apostacy from Islam. Among their erroneous beliefs is their denial of the finality of Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah on him), an article of faith endorsed by the Qur'an and Hadith reports as well as the consensus of the Companions and scholars.
The Qur'an states (translation):
"O people! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets. And Allah is aware of everything." (33:40)
The true Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, observed:
"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Sahih Bukhari)
The Ahmadiyyas are followers of a certain Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian who lay claim to prophethood and used fabricated Hadith reports and twisted meanings of some Qur'anic verses to support himself. However, the true Prophet of Islam warned of this danger explicitly,
"The Hour will not come ... until nearly thirty "dajjals" (liars) appear, each one claiming to be a messenger from Allah." (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
Shortly after the death of Prophet Muhammad, a man named Musailama, a claimant to prophethood, was fought against together with his followers for their apostacy. It is worth noting that Musailama did not deny the prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings on him) and nor did his followers. It is also worth noting that it was misinformation that led the tribe of Banu Hunaifa to accept Musailama's false claims. Nevertheless, the consensus of the companions was to declare them apostates and wage a war against them. This is evidence enough to declare the Ahmadiyyas as non-Muslims. For a more thorough treatment of this subject consult this article.
Another example of the Ahmadiyya's rejection of the Qur'an and Sunnah is their contention that Jesus died, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an incarnation of Jesus. In fact, according to the 1985 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be not only Jesus but Prophet Muhammad, the Mahdi, and the Hindu god Krishna. It suffices to refer back to the essence of Islam which is the Uniqueness of God: any concept of man becoming god, worse yet a Hindu god who is one out of many, is false according to the Qur'an. On this, Islam is uncomprising, hence this error of the Ahmadiyyas is the foremost indication of their exit from Islam. Finally, the Ahmadiyyas also rejected jihad, a tactic which was designed to eliminate Muslim resistance to British colonialist rule. For a more detailed exposition of the Ahmadiyyas, refer to the "Anti Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam Homepage".
The International Community of Submitters
The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah. This claim in itself is sufficient to remove the Submitters from Islam as the Qur'an states (translation):
"O people! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets. And Allah is aware of everything." (33:40)
The true Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, observed:
"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Sahih Bukhari)
Much of Rashad Khalifa's misguidance can be traced to his obsession with numerology, an obsession which has misguided many different people throughout history. Khalifa alleged that the Qur'an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19. He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur'an because according to him "the word `God' ... is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove [it]", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word `God' occurs is ... 19x6217 ... If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears." By rejecting a single verse of the Qur'an, the Submitters bring themselves under the judgement of another verse,
... Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom ... (2:85)
It is interesting to note that Khalifa was a numerologist who did his blighted profession justice: he predicted the end of the world. However, Allah says in the Qur'an
They ask you about the (last) hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know. (7:187)
The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:
Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam
With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,
Narrated AbuRafi':
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#noi
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
But we allow them to plot scheme train before they carry out their deeds do we not?
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Nope. We prosecute these guys when we catch them.
Sara
So America Harbors terrorists
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Anti-Abortionists who kill doctors then
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Caliphate, office and realm of the caliph as supreme leader of the Muslim community and successor of the Prophet Muhammad. Under Muhammad the Muslim state was a theocracy, with the Sharia, the religious and moral principles of Islam, as the law of the land. The caliphs, Muhammad's successors, were both secular and religious leaders. They were not empowered, however, to promulgate dogma, because it was considered that the revelation of the faith had been completed by Muhammad.
The Sunnites (followers of the Sunna, the body of Islamic custom or the Way of the Prophet), who constitute a majority of Muslims, generally consider the period of the first four caliphs the golden age of Islam. Other sects, however, as they were formed, came to regard this period and subsequent caliphates differently, and as a result great hostility has frequently arisen between the Sunnites and other Muslims, such as the Shiites, concerning the caliphate. During the course of Islamic history the issue of the caliphate probably has created more dissension than any other article of faith.
Based on the examples of the first four “rightly guided” caliphs and companions of the Prophet, the Sunnites formulated the following requirements of the caliphate: the caliph should be an Arab of the Prophet Muhammad's tribe, the Quraysh; he should be elected to his office and approved by a council of elders representing the Muslim community; and he should be responsible for enforcing divine law and spreading Islam by whatever means necessary, including war. In the history of the caliphate, however, all these requirements were rarely met.
The Shiites, in contrast, believing that the Prophet himself had designated his son-in-law, Ali, as both his temporal and spiritual successor, accepted only Ali's descendants (by Fatima, Muhammad's daughter) as legitimate claimants to the caliphate.
II. The Immediate SuccessorsPrint section
Muhammad died in 632, leaving no instructions for the future government of the Muslim community.A group of Islamic leaders met in Medina (now in Saudi Arabia), the capital of the Muslim world at that time, and elected Abu Bakr, the Prophet's father-in-law and closest associate, to lead the community. Abu Bakr took for himself the title khalifat Rasul Allah (Arabic, “successor to the Messenger of God”), from which the term caliph (Arabic, khalifah, “successor”) is derived.
Umar I became the second caliph in 634. On his deathbed, Abu Bakr had designated Umar as his successor, and all the important members of the Muslim community immediately accepted Umar's succession. Under his leadership, the first great expansion of Islam outside of Arabia took place. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the northern part of Mesopotamia became Islamic territories, and the armies of the Persian Empire were routed several times. Umar added the title amir-al-mum-inin (Arabic, “commander of the believers”) to that of caliph.
After Umar's death in 644, Uthman ibn Affan, Muhammad's son-in-law and one of his first converts, was appointed the third caliph by a panel of six Meccan electors. Although an elderly man, he carried on Umar's policy of territorial expansion. Eventually, however, Uthman earned the enmity of many of his subjects, who felt he favored the Meccan aristocracy in political and commercial affairs. Uthman also antagonized the Islamic preachers by issuing an official text of the Qur'an (Koran), with an accompanying order to destroy all other versions. Rebellious Muslim troops from Al Kufah (Iraq) and Egypt besieged Uthman in Medina and assassinated him in 656.
Ali, a cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was acknowledged as the fourth caliph by the Medinians and the rebellious Muslim troops. The governor of Syria, Muawiyah, later Muawiyah I the first Umayyad caliph, refused to recognize Ali as caliph and called for vengeance for the death of Uthman (who was Muawiyah's kinsman). In 657 the rival parties met at Siffin, on a plain in northern Syria, near the site of the modern city of Ar Raqqah. There, after an inconclusive battle, they agreed to arbitrate the dispute. Ali found himself being considered as a mere candidate for the caliphate on equal grounds with Muawiyah. Angered by this indignity, and with Ali for submitting to it, a group of his followers, later known as the Kharijites, deserted and vowed to assassinate both Ali and Muawiyah. They succeeded in killing only Ali. Ali's son, Hasan, then claimed (661) the still disputed caliphate but abdicated within a few months under pressure from Muawiyah's supporters, who greatly outnumbered Ali's followers, the Shiites.
III. The Umayyad Caliphs (661-750)Print section
The Umayyad caliphs were descendants of aristocratic caravan merchants, the Umayya, to which Muawiyah, the first Umayyad caliph, belonged. During his reign, Muawiyah stabilized the Muslim community after Ali's assassination. He moved the capital of Islam from Medina to Damascus, bringing the Muslim rulers into contact with the more advanced cultural and administrative traditions of the Byzantine Empire. Muawiyah also dispensed with the practice of electing the caliph by designating his son Yazid as heir apparent. The principle of election was acknowledged formally, however, by having the council of elders pledge to support the designated heir. The practice of hereditary succession continued throughout the Umayyad dynasty and in subsequent dynasties as well. Many Muslims, however, later disapproved of it as a deviation from the essential nature of Islam.
Yazid I (reigned 680-83) succeeded his father but was faced immediately with two rebellions, each supporting a rival claimant to the caliphate. The Kufan Shiites recognized Ali's second son (and the Prophet's grandson), Husayn, as caliph. Thus encouraged, Husayn left Medina for Al Kufah, despite warnings that Yazid's troops had quelled the Kufic uprising. On the plain of Karbala', in Iraq, he and his small escort were intercepted and slaughtered. This event, more than any other, marks the true beginning of the Shiite schism. A second rebellion by Meccans was finally quelled during the caliphate (685-705) of Abd al-Malik, Yazid's third successor.
Shiite, Kharijite, and other groups of Muslims and non-Arabic converts (Arabic mawali) frequently revolted against the Umayyads. The mawali accused the Umayyads of religious laxity and of indifference to their demands for full brotherhood in the Muslim community. Umayyad caliphs, nevertheless, vastly enlarged the Muslim empire and created a bureaucracy capable of administering it. Under the Umayyads, Muslim armies swept eastward to the borders of India and China, westward across North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean, then northward through Spain and over the Pyrenees Mountains into France, where the Frankish infantry under the Carolingian ruler Charles Martel checked them near Poitiers in 732.
IV. The Abbasid Caliphs (750-1258)Print section
The Umayyads were overthrown by a combination of Shiite, Iranian, and other Muslim and non-Muslim groups dissatisfied with the Umayyad regime. The rebels were led by the Abbasid family, descendants of the Prophet's uncle Abbas. From about 718 the Abbasids had plotted to take the caliphate, sending agents into various parts of the Muslim empire to spread propaganda against the Umayyads. By 747 they had secured enough support to organize a rebellion in northern Iran that led to the defeat of the Umayyad caliphate three years later. The Abbasids executed most of the Umayyad family, moved the capital of the empire to Baghdad, and assimilated much of the pomp and ceremony of the former Persian monarchy into their own courts.
Beginning in 750 with Abu al-Abbas, the Abbasid caliphate lasted five centuries; it is the most durable and most famous Islamic dynasty. The Abbasids became patrons of learning and encouraged religious observance. They were the first Muslim rulers to become leaders of an Islamic civilization and protectors of the religion rather than merely an Arab aristocracy imposing an Arab civilization on conquered lands. Under their caliphate Baghdad replaced Medina as the center of theological activity, industry and commerce developed greatly, and the Islamic empire reached a peak of material and intellectual achievement.
The 8th- and 9th-century caliphs Harun al-Rashid and his son Abdullah al-Mamun are especially renowned for their encouragement of intellectual pursuits and for the splendor of their courts. During their reigns scholars were invited to the court to debate various topics, and translations were made from Greek, Persian, and Syriac works. Embassies also were exchanged with Charlemagne, emperor of the West.
In the late 9th century, the Abbasid caliphs increasingly began to delegate administrative responsibility to ministers of state and other government officials and to lose control over their Baghdad guards. As they gradually gave up personal political power, the caliphs placed more and more emphasis on their role as protectors of the faith. One result of this change in emphasis was the increased persecution of heretics and non-Muslims. About the same time, several successful revolts in the eastern provinces led to the establishment of independent principalities, and independent caliphates were subsequently established in North Africa and in Spain. Eventually, the power of the Abbasids barely extended outside Baghdad, and by the middle of the 10th century, the Abbasid caliphs had virtually no power, serving merely as figureheads at the mercy of the military commanders. The final defeat of the Abbasid dynasty came from outside the Muslim world, when al-Mustasim was put to death by the invading Mongols at the order of Hulagu, the grandson of Genghis Khan.
V. The Abbasids in Cairo (1261-1517)Print section
When the Mongols sacked Baghdad in 1258, two members of the Abbasid family escaped to Egypt, where they took refuge with Baybars I, the Mamluk sultan. Each was named caliph, successively, by the sultan; but they were allowed to assume only religious duties, and the descendants of the second caliph remained politically powerless under the Mamluk sultans.
VI. The Fatimid Dynasty and the Umayyads of SpainPrint section
During the decline of Abbasid power, two rival caliphates were established, one in North Africa and another in Spain. The first, ruled by the Fatimid dynasty, was founded by Ubayd Allah, who proclaimed himself caliph in Tunisia in 909. The Fatimids were Shiites, claiming descent from Fatima (thus the name Fatimid), Muhammad's daughter, and her husband Ali, the fourth caliph. At the height of its power, in the latter half of the 10th century, the Fatimid caliphate constituted a serious threat to the Abbasids in Baghdad. The Fatimids ruled most of northern Africa from Egypt to present-day Algeria, as well as Sicily and Syria. In addition the Fatimids claimed the allegiance of other Shiites, both within and outside their domain. They sent missionaries from their capital in Cairo to the rest of the Muslim world, proclaiming the Fatimid caliphs to be infallible and sinless and the bearers of divine illumination handed down directly from Ali. Their dynasty was overthrown in 1171 by Saladin, sultan of Egypt.
The second rival caliphate was established by Abd-ar-Rahman III, who proclaimed himself caliph in Spain in 929. He was the descendant of an Umayyad prince who fled the Abbasid massacre of his family and settled (755) in Spain. The Umayyad dynasty of Spain, responsible for a brilliant period in Spanish history, ruled from its capital in Córdoba until 1031, when the caliphate broke up into numerous petty states.
VII. The Ottomans and the Modern PeriodPrint section
From about the 13th century various monarchs throughout the Muslim world, particularly the Ottoman sultans, assumed the title caliph indiscriminately without regard to the prescribed requirements of the caliphate. The title held little significance for the Ottoman sultans until their empire began to decline. In the 19th century, with the advent of Christian powers in the Near East, the sultan began to emphasize his role as caliph in an effort to gain the support of Muslims living outside his realm. The Ottoman Empire collapsed during World War I (1914-1918). After the war, Turkish nationalists deposed the sultan, and the caliphate was finally abolished (March 1924) by the Turkish Grand National Assembly.
The abolition of the caliphate brought consternation to many sections of the Muslim world, and protests were directed against the action of the Turkish government. Subsequently, King Husein ibn Ali of Al Hijaz (the Hejaz, now part of Saudi Arabia), laid claim to the title by virtue of his direct descent from the Prophet and his control of the two holy cities, Mecca and Medina. His claim, however, received little attention outside of Palestine, Syria, and parts of Arabia. The conquest (1925) of Al Hijaz by Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, ruler of Najd, Arabia, made Husein's claim even less significant.
An international Muslim congress held in Cairo in 1926 to choose an acceptable successor to the caliphate proved abortive, resulting only in an appeal to the Muslims of the world to work together to reestablish a caliphate. Ever since World War II, however, the preoccupation of Muslim nations has been with national independence and economic problems, and the restoration of the caliphate may now be regarded as irrelevant.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Let me take a stab at it...
Terrorism... acts of violence against innocent civilians for the purpose of putting political pressure for one's agenda or to exact revenge against a government or entire people.
Sara
The Shiites emerged out of a dispute over the succession to Muhammad (see Caliphate).
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After the assassination of the fourth caliph, Ali, in 661, the Shiites (partisans of Ali) were those Muslims claiming that it had been Ali's right to succeed Muhammad directly and that the previous caliphs had therefore been usurpers. They maintained that only the descendants of Ali and his wife, Fatima, Muhammad's daughter, were entitled to rule the Muslim community. This doctrine, known as legitimism, was rejected by the majority of the Muslim community, who came to be known as Sunnites.
III. Distinctive Beliefs and PracticesPrint section
The Shiites developed a doctrine of the infallibility, sinlessness, and divine right to authority of the descendants of Ali, whom they called imams (see Imam). The main body of Shiites recognize 12 imams and are called the "Twelvers"; the Ismailis recognize 7 and are called the "Seveners." The last imam disappeared in 880, and Shiites to this day await his return, when they believe that justice will be established on earth.
The imam, as the Shiites conceive him, is a repository of wisdom, absolute in his political and religious authority. Under the theoretical aegis of the 12th imam, Shiite religious leaders exercise immense influence. They are more likely to take an innovative approach to religious issues and to defy political authority than Sunnites.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Sunnites, those Muslims constituting the vast majority in the world Islamic community (see Islam). The term sunna, by which the Sunnites refer to themselves ("people of the sunna"), probably means "middle of the road" (as opposed to the peripheral ways taken by sectarians). It does not mean the Sunna ("example") of the Prophet Muhammad, as is generally believed, for all Islamic groups and sects accept the Sunna, along with the Qur'an (Koran), as binding.
The doctrines of the Sunnites were formed toward the end of the 9th century, and their theology was developed as a complete system during the 10th century. Both developments occurred, in large measure, as reactions to early schismatic movements, such as the Kharijites, Mutazilites, and Shiites. The Sunnites' inclusive definition of a Muslim, for instance, was conceived in reaction to the narrow extremism of the Kharijites. Their strong emphasis on God's power, will, and determination of human fate developed in reaction to the Mutazilite insistence on the absolute freedom of the human will. Their political doctrines emerged in the struggle against the legitimism espoused by the Shiites in the dispute over the succession to Muhammad (see Caliphate). Various nuances of interpretation and different schools have developed within Sunnite theology, the Sunnite tendency having been to accommodate minor differences of opinion and to affirm the consensus of the community in doctrinal matters. Four schools of law also developed in the Sunnite tradition: the Shafi'i, the Hanafi, the Maliki, and the Hanbali.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
"it's just some bad whooey and ya know it when ya see it"
So you have to commit an act of terror before you achieve the label terrorist? Aren’t their any ways to classify and define or categorize possible terrorist candidates before they hurt people? Do they have to have a bomb in a vehicle before they become a suspect?
When other countries do not believe or have the same moral ethical or civic values that we possess, what system then do we use to judge or classify as a terrorist? Possible terrorist? Do we impose our standard upon them? Men that beat women with sticks because they show their faces in public are terrorists? I remember reading old Oregon Law stating was legal to beat your wife with a stick or dowel of not greater than one inch in diameter, nor longer than 36” in length…That’s ONE BIG SWITCH eeeeouch!
Did you know that Saudi Arabia’s main religion is the same as the Taliban? Just as Christians do Christianity, They spend billions exporting this sect of the Muslim religion throughout the Middle East and into the world. Saudi Arabia is our biggest Middle East ally. Would you consider them a harborer of terrorism because they produce the types of people whom have engaged in these terrorist termed activities in the past?
Why are not murders (mass or serial) rapist(s) (fear power control) and drug dealer(s) (fear power control) charged with terrorism? I’m certainly afraid of them. The impact their crimes have upon us. Our People. Our streets.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
October 4, 2001 Posted: 9:51 PM EDT (0151 GMT)
Workers at the World Trade Center disaster site look at a large illuminated cross near the rubble of the collapsed buildings on Wednesday.
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Two nights after two hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center, causing it to collapse in a mound of twisted wreckage, Frank Silecchia had just helped remove three bodies from the rubble when he looked up and saw a scene he says transfixed him.Among the debris from Tower One that had crashed onto the floor of the atrium of Building 6, the laborer with Local 731 said he saw steel beams strewn about in the shape of crosses that reminded him of depictions showing Jesus Christ and two thieves being crucified on Calvary.
"I seen this picture of Calvary with three, four crosses in it. The main structure of Christ's cross was in front of me. It took my breath away," said Silecchia.
Since then, the crane operator has scrawled "God's house" on the building and shown his find to others at ground zero.
"I've healed many people with this and brought contentment to them," the 47-year-old divorced father of two said.
Among those to whom Silecchia showed the cross was Father Brian Jordan, a priest at St. Francis of Assisi parish in Midtown, who was offering communion to workers at the site.
Jordan persuaded city authorities to pull the largest of the crosses from the wreckage intact and save it as a memorial. The cross will be removed from its resting place in the wreckage in a ceremony Thursday afternoon.
"They'll have something to hang on the wall, and some inspiration," said Silecchia, who describes himself as a born-again Christian.
"Our country is hurting right now, and I can't think of a better way to strengthen it -- through God's hands. It ain't a point of religion, it's a point of faith.
"This country feels, in some way, God has forsaken them, and I don't want that to be happening," he said.
Silecchia said the cross could help people of all beliefs. "Even an atheist watching this building must have said, 'Oh, my God!' Evil did this work, and God prevailed to show his strength."
The Brooklyn native, who lives in New Jersey, said he hopes his symbol of faith will inspire people outside the confines of ground zero: "It's healed so many people here; I'm just hoping it can do so for the nation."
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/04/rec.attacks.cross/index.html
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Could you define our terrorist enemy please?
terrorism = systematic use of violence, terror, and intimidation to achieve an end
terrorist----->one who's credo is to instill terror
Arch's plain english------>it's just some bad whooey and ya know it when ya see it:)
Arch
Archangel...
Could you define our terrorist enemy please?
This world coalition is a feeble attempt to stop the outward show of a Holy war. JMO Lets just get off the fence and do this thing one-way or the other..And I hope we handle this with the severity needed to instill utmost fear of the USA throughout the entire world.
Have a good day Arch!
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Far right's drums beat out hate against Islam
05.10.2001
By CATHERINE FIELD PARIS - Far-right groups in Europe are seizing on the September 11 attacks in America to beat the xenophobic drum and governments, sensing that the sound is reverberating among the public, are moving to tighten immigration and asylum rules. The radical right's message, either direct or implicit, is that the Muslim minority in western Europe is somehow alien to the host culture and harbours terrorists or criminals. French far-right leader Bruno Megret this week chose the city of Poitiers - where the Frankish, Christian king Charles Martel defeated Arab, Muslim invaders in 732 - to warn of an "Islamic fifth column" inside France. He claimed there was a direct link between the suicide assaults on New York and Washington, and the crime-ridden French city suburbs, which has a large number of North African immigrants. "Today, the danger comes not just from Kabul but from Mantes-la-Jolie," he said, referring to a town northwest of Paris. "Our council estates have become powder kegs like in Palestine. The attacks on the Pentagon are of the same nature as those taking place in our suburbs every day, on policemen, firemen and all the representatives of the state." Megret's group, the Republican National Movement, is not a votewinner - it has no MPs and won only 3 per cent of the ballots cast in the 1999 European Parliament elections - but it has significant mischief value. It has launched a poster campaign under the slogan "Islamists Out of France - Order with Megret" and vowed to place "the tide of immigration" at the centre of next April's presidential election campaign. In Germany, liberal opinion has been shocked by the rise of a maverick rightwing judge, Ronald Schill, who won 18 per cent of the vote in elections to the city-state of Hamburg last month in his first tilt at the ballot box. Schill made a name for himself by calling for the constitutional right to political asylum to be scrapped in order to avoid its abuse by economic migrants and saying black drug dealers were to blame for the city's high crime rate. Initially dismissed as shallow and demagogic by his opponents, his Party for a Law and Order Offensive made a breakthrough with voters after investigators into the US atrocities said at least three of the attackers lived and trained in Hamburg. Opinions such as these have been loudly condemned by European mainstream parties, the press and religious leaders. But, fearing that the xenophobic drumbeat is echoing among the public, many countries have struck a tougher verbal posture on migration and some have already announced detailed plans to tighten up immigration procedures and asylum rules. The Austrian Government announced this week that all asylum-seekers would have to give their fingerprints, and all immigrants must learn German as part of an "integration contract" with the host nation. In Britain, the Labour Government said it would pass tougher laws on the processing of asylum cases. Incitement to religious hatred will be made a crime, creating a law that could be used against violent xenophobes but also presumably against Islamic fundamentalists using the mosque and internet as platforms for terrorists. The far right British National Party has launched an anti-Islamic fundamentalist leaflet campaign, and its website, like Megret's, features an image of a mosque's minaret crossed out with a red line, as on a road sign.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=220700&thesection=news&thesubsection=worl...
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
With this coalition forming up, the terrorists will get their azz kicked....they will feel the wrath....you betcha
Putin says attacks on Afghanistan could be successful, praises Blair
MOSCOW, Oct 04, 2001 (AP WorldStream via COMTEX) -- Russian President Vladimir
Putin said Thursday he had no doubt that the U.S.-led military action in
Afghanistan could be successful and hailed visiting British Prime Minister Tony
Blair's role in warming ties between Moscow and the West.
"We shall see how effective the actions of the international anti-terrorist
coalition will be after such actions become a reality," Putin said. "But I don't
have a grain of doubt that they can be effective indeed."
Putin dismissed concerns that the military action in Afghanistan could hurt
civilians, saying the action's planners were taking due care of their safety and
adding that civilians had already been suffering under rigid Taliban rule.
"If there are victims, terrorists who have made civilians their hostages are to
be blamed for that," he added.
Putin last week expressed strong support for the U.S.-led coalition, offering
Russian airspace for humanitarian flights and pledging to provide Afghanistan's
opposition forces battling the ruling Taliban militia with weapons and
equipment.
He said Thursday that Russia might offer further assistance to the coalition
depending on the "level and character of relations with our partners."
Blair arrived in Russia on a quick visit after a speech in the British
Parliament where he said there was "absolutely no doubt" that Osama bin Laden
was behind the terror attacks on New York and Washington.
After speaking to Putin in the Kremlin, Blair said that Russia's move to support
the international coalition against terror had changed the face of the world.
"When we are battling something like the issue of international terrorism and
also on many other issues, too, we need Russia there as a partner and a friend
and that is the relationship today," Blair told a news conference.
"The fact that we have Russia today standing alongside the other countries of
the world ... and giving its strong support to action against acts of terrorism
that took place in the United States of America that is living proof, visible
proof of the changed world in which we live," he said.
Blair said that right from the very first meeting of his eight meetings with
Putin he recognized him as "someone who had the vision and imagination to set
the past aside and build new relationship for the future."
Putin, in turn, said that Blair along with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder
were to be credited for their efforts to improve ties with Russia at a time when
"the Western public wasn't as friendly toward Russia as now."
"Thanks to the stance taken by those leaders, the West has acquired in Russia a
reliable partner in the struggle against international terrorism," Putin said.
The Interfax news agency reported that Blair would leave Moscow on Friday
morning and head to Pakistan. Blair's office refused to say when the prime
minister would return to London, and would not comment on reports that he also
would visit Pakistan and possibly Oman.
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV
Associated Press Writer
Copyright 2001 Associated Press, All rights reserved
Arch
Sara - May not be "new news" just flamed fires !?!?!?
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/tmp-pmv/2001/kosovo_e.html
now this is good news>>>>>>>>>>>>
NATO Members Join U.S. in Terror War
Thursday, October 04, 2001
BRUSSELS, Belgium — NATO approved the United States' request for specific military contributions in the campaign against terrorism on Thursday, the alliance's secretary-general said.
The decision backs up earlier promises with military hardware and intelligence, after Washington's 18 NATO allies said they were convinced by U.S. evidence of Osama bin Laden's involvement in the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington.
"Today's decision clearly demonstrates the allies' resolve to combat terrorism," Secretary-General Lord Robertson said. He added the commitments were "clearly not time-limited."
NATO officials have refused to divulge the content of the list of requests nor speculate on when the assistance might be called on.
But in Rome, Italy's Foreign Minister Renato Ruggiero said the U.S. requests to NATO include access to alliance members' ports, airspace and airports and the ordering up of naval forces in the Mediterranean.
"The alliance is ready to deploy elements of its standing naval forces," Robertson said.
Ruggiero also said the United States had asked that NATO members make available alliance radar aircraft and provide financial aid to Pakistan and other countries involved in the campaign.
Diplomatic sources at alliance headquarters have said the aid requested was essentially a compilation of the kinds of support the United States already has obtained from member states on a bilateral basis.
France, for example, has agreed to American requests to open its airspace and has offered naval and logistics support in the Indian Ocean.
Germany said the U.S. request included cooperation on intelligence, protection of U.S. installations in NATO countries, unlimited overflight rights and air space surveillance. The chancellor said he told the German representative to NATO to cooperate in helping the United States with its needs.
On Tuesday, the allies formally invoked NATO's Article 5, which says an attack against one member is an attack against all.
The decision on the request for assistance from the United States was taken by the so-called silent procedure, by which the member states agree if they do not raise objections by a certain deadline.
Arch
Yes, it is terrible news. I haven't seen any confirmation on the big news sites yet... we can hope it's a false alarm.
Sara
gosh Sara ----- that is horrible news :(
Ebola-style killer virus sweeps Afghan border
By Tim Butcher in Quetta
(Filed: 04/10/2001)
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2...
US: Russian Plane May Have Been Hit by Missile
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Russian plane that crashed into the Black Sea with more than 70 people on board may have been hit by a surface-to-air missile, U.S. officials said on Thursday.
The plane could have been a victim of a tragic accident rather than of an act of terror, said the officials, who asked to remain unidentified.
``It could well have been a training accident, it could have been the Ukrainian military conducting a live-fire test. It could be a tragic accident,'' one official said.
Initial reports from the Pentagon were that there may have been a launch of a surface-to-air missile or missiles from the Crimea that may have brought the plane down, the officials said.
``It's still very early and we should not rush to any conclusions,'' one official said.
mmayr.......
I apologize for the hostility the other day. Let me try and explain its root.
When some one throws out a blanket statement such as " Lets stop Terrorism" In essence what they are saying is lets ban the Gun.
Terrorism is nothing more than a method of attack made by PEOPLE. Just as a gun does not get up walk down the street firing itself at people, neither does terrorism occur unless there is a Terrorist or human being behind the scenes orchestrating.
The powers that be are using the buzzword terrorism to insight the people and demonize an enemy in which they refuse to identify due to its true nature. I have spent the last few days addressing what I believe this conflict to be about, and just who the sides are.. Give me some more time and I will laden this thread with much secular information about the Media termed Fundamentalist extremists.
I wonder how the Baptists would feel being called fundamentalist extremists???
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
I hate to say this but for us any terrorist attack against Russia serves our best interests. It will do nothing but solidify our relationship.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
MOSCOW — At least 77 people were on board a Russian airliner en route from Tel Aviv to Siberia that apparently exploded Thursday before plunging into the Black Sea, Russian officials said.
The plane went down 114 miles off the Russian coastal city of Adler, located on the Georgian border, said Vasily Yurchuk, a spokesman of the Ministry of Emergency Situations.
It was not immediately clear if the crash was linked to the Sept. 11 terror attacks on New York and Washington. Russian officials said they were investigating the cause, but could not rule out a terrorist attack.
The plane, a Tupolev 154, was on its way from Israel to the Siberian city of Novosibirsk, Yurchuk said. It belonged to Sibir Airlines, which is based in Novosibirsk.
Deputy Transport Minister Karl Ruppel told The Associated Press that a crew of an Armenian airliner in the area informed Russian air traffic controllers in Rostov-on-Don in southern Russia they saw an explosion aboard a plane flying nearby.
The Emergency Situations Ministry said there were at least 66 passengers and 11 crew members aboard.
The plane had made a stopover in Burgas in Bulgaria, where it apparently took on more passengers, Vladimir Kofman, an official with the Interstate Aviation Committee, which is in charge of investigating crashes in the former Soviet republics.
Russian President Vladimir Putin was immediately informed of the crash, presidential press spokesman said, according to the Interfax news agency.
Putin called the head of the Federal Security Service and the Defense Minister to the Kremlin. He named Vladimir Rushailo, head of the Security Council, to head the investigation.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Rivera is playing those WTC tapes like it's the top 40. Now that's disrespectful.
LOL, great post Carolyn! eom
muel <g>
"Ooops"
CONFUSION CREATES HIJACK DRAMA
NEW DELHI: After more than four hours of anxious moments, Union Civil Aviation Minister Shahnawaz Hussain said the supposed hijacking of the Alliance Air was a creation of confusion caused by false alarm received at the ATC Ahmedabad.
The message to the ATC, which said the plane had been hijacked, was promptly passed on to the pilots who locked the cockpit.
All the while, passengers thought the hijackers were inside the cockpit while the pilots were under the impression that the hijackers were with the passengers.
The authorities, not taking any chances, sent a team of NSG commandos into the aircraft, said Shahnawaz Hussain.
The pilots also spoke to Home Minister L K Advani. Advani said there will be "a thorough probe into the chain of events."
http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1331366505
The Q'ran and Judaism (at least) in their literal reading advocate killing your enemy...something which Jesus didn't endorse--and even taught against it.
Jessus didn't, but there is plenty of that in the Old Testament.
Sara
Agreed however....
>>>Basically all the great teachers, such as Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, or Mohammed, founded their new teachings with a motivation of helping their fellow humans.
I have trouble with this one. I don't think that accurately reflects the teachings of each, unless by "helping their fellow humans" he means finding their brand of the "way" to God. The Q'ran and Judaism (at least) in their literal reading advocate killing your enemy....Something which Jesus didnt endorse....and even taught against it.
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Great post, great words by a great man.
Sara : )
"Although in every religion there is an emphasis on compassion and love, from the viewpoint of philosophy, of course there are differences, and that is all right. Philosophical teachings are not the end, not the aim, not what you serve. The aim is to help and benefit others, and philosophical teachings to support those ideas are valuable. If we go into the differences in philosophy and argue with and criticize each other, it is useless. There will be endless argument; the result will mainly be that we irritate each other -- accomplishing nothing. Better to look at the purpose of the philosophies and to see what is shared -- an emphasis on love, compassion, and respect for a higher force.
"The teachings of tolerance, love, and compassion are the same. A basic goal is the benefit of humankind -- each type of system seeking in its own unique ways to improve human beings. If we put too much emphasis on our own philosophy, religion, or theory, are too attached to it, and try to impose it on other people, it makes trouble. Basically all the great teachers, such as Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, or Mohammed, founded their new teachings with a motivation of helping their fellow humans. They did not mean to gain anything for themselves nor to create more trouble or unrest in the world.
"Most important is that we respect each other and learn from each other those things that will enrich our own practice. Even if all the systems are separate, since they each have the same goal, the study of each other is helpful."
H.H. the Dalai Lama
The Dalai Lama, A Policy of Kindness © 1990
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
The balz can't be that big...lol>>>>>>>
Russian Troops Enter Afghanistan
John L. Perry
Wednesday, October 03, 2001
Russian special forces are reported on the ground in Afghanistan, pinpointing targets for high-tech bombs to blast Osama bin Laden from his mountain lairs.
United States and British special forces as well have already been reported on similar missions there.
This would be the first time Russian troops had been re-introduced into Afghanistan since Soviet Union forces were run out of the country by Afghan fighters, then backed by the Central Intelligence Agency, a decade after the Soviet invasion in 1979.
It is known that Russian President Vladimir Putin has been turning over to the United States detailed Russian intelligence data about where bin Laden's secret redoubts and tunnels may be hidden.
Updating Long-Ago Information
However, much of that information dates back to the time when Soviet troops were at war in Afghanistan. Now, Russian special forces could well be scouting out those old reports, bringing them up to date.
According to the Independent newspaper published in the United Kingdom, the highly trained Russian troops are believed to have crossed the border into Afghanistan from the Republic of Tajikistan, once part of the Soviet Union.
That represents a major shift in positions of both Russia and Tajikistan, which in the early days after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States were ruling out any military participation in America's war on terrorism.
Each had said they would not allow their territory to be used by U.S. or other foreign forces as a base from which to go after bin Laden's terrorist encampments in the mountains of Afghanistan.
Russia Getting Serious
Both have now relented on that point, but this is the first evidence Russia is willing actually to commit its troops to the war.
The Independent reported Wednesday that these U.S., British and Russian special forces are on "limited excursions" within Afghanistan, to locate precisely the positions where bin Laden and his al-Qa'ida terrorist-network comrades are holed up.
The British newspaper said the special forces are pinpointing sites also occupied by the Taliban militant Islamic sect that governs Afghanistan and has been sheltering bin Laden.
It said the purpose of putting those sites in the cross-hairs of the U.S. and British military is to enable their satellite-guided "smart bombs," capable of penetrating down through 25 feet of rock, to be directed at the terrorist hideouts.
Just How Impregnable?
One of the main targets, the Independent reported, could be a particular terrorist command center the Taliban has boasted is impregnable.
Over the weekend, the paper said, many of those specialized bombs, which can differentiate soil, rock and concrete, were moved from Britain to the Indian Ocean island base of Diego Garcia, where U.S. aircraft have been deployed.
While that was taking place, the Taliban was scrambling to beef up its military forces, in anticipation of an imminent U.S. air and ground assault.
But, according to the Independent, the Taliban is having serious trouble: Many of its fighters are now deserting their posts, and it has had to abandon "whole tracts of territory" it previously controlled around the city of Herat near the Afghan border with Iran.
This is of special significance to the Taliban, for among its enemies in the Islamic world is the government of Iran. Taliban forces had been stationed near the border to discourage any Iranian incursions. Now that buffer is eroding.
John L. Perry, a prize-winning newspaper editor and writer who served on White House staffs of two presidents, is senior editor for NewsMax.com.
Arch
Muelhead -- ROFLMFAO -- That's the most intelligent suggestion I've heard yet.
What to do with Osama bin Laden?
Killing him will only create a martyr. Holding him prisoner will inspire his comrades to take hostages to demand his release.
Therefore, I suggest we do neither. Let the Special Forces, Seals or whatever covertly capture him, fly him to an undisclosed hospital and have surgeons quickly perform a complete sex change operation. Then we return HER to Afghanistan to live as a woman under the Taliban.
Wouldn't that be a kick in the arse for him! lol
muel <g>
"mere suspicion".....what balls !!!!!!! :(
==========================================================
Taliban Chief Urges Rich Muslims to Fund Defense
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (Reuters) - The leader of the Taliban was quoted Wednesday as calling for a holy struggle against what he called a Western crusade against Afghanistan and urging rich Muslims to fund its defense.
Qatar-based al-Jazeera television quoted Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar as saying ``mere suspicion'' against Osama bin Laden, named by Washington as top suspect in last month's attacks on the United States, was no justification for attacking either bin Laden or an entire country.
``Merchants and owners of capital, your prime duty is to spend in the way of God,'' Omar was quoted as saying in a statement broadcast by al-Jazeera. ``In a situation like the one we are in today jihad (holy struggle) becomes a duty for all Muslims against those invaders.''
There was no independent confirmation of the authenticity of the statement, but Jazeera faxed Reuters a copy typed in Arabic with a handwritten signature.
Saudi-born bin Laden has denied any role in the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington that left nearly 6,000 people dead or presumed killed.
The United States has told the Taliban to surrender bin Laden or face the consequences. It has massed military forces within striking distance of Afghanistan and is gathering international support for a possible strike.
Omar's statement was addressed to Muslims around the world:
``No doubt you are following carefully and attentively the flagrant crusade led by the United States of America with international support from Britain, and the Christian countries of Europe and NATO and Russia and the former communist countries and those who join them from the ranks of infidels and apostates,'' it said.
``They are building armies and creating alliances against the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan to achieve declared goals, at the head of which is to topple the Islamic government of Afghanistan and destroy what they call the bases of terrorism.
``No doubt you realize that the reasons they claim are behind their crusade are only an excuse to achieve their underlying aims...They want to destroy this Islamic state because it is Islamic.
``Otherwise, what law allows the punishment of a person for a mere suspicion that has not been established, not to mention punishing a nation because of that person.''
Reut11:12 10-03-01
Taliban death threat to opposition supporters
October 3, 2001 Posted: 4:18 AM EDT (0818 GMT)
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CNN) -- The head of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban has warned that anyone supporting an opposition government, including one headed by the country's former king, will be considered traitors punishable by death.
Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammed Omar delivered his speech over Kandahar's Radio Sharia -- his fifth public address since the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington.
A leader who in the past had rarely spoken publicly to the Afghan people and who has never been seen on camera, Omar cast himself as a representative of the nation's people bent on preserving the Taliban's Islamic customs.
He said Afghans need to look after their religion and to not let U.S. involvement in "our affairs" destroy Islam.
He warned against reinstating the former Afghan king, Mohammed Zahir Shah, or any form of government to replace the Taliban.
"Do you think the king will arrest Christian proselytizers like we do? Do you think the king will defend our faith in Allah?" Omar asked.
He accused the king of inviting Communist occupation of Afghanistan that resulted in the deaths of 2 million Afghans, and he said those who back the king would have no right to complain if he is again the leader and tragedy befalls the nation.
Treason
The former king has said he is willing to return and head a new Afghan government
Anyone who supports the king or any other anti-Taliban government "will be accused of treason" -- an offense that could result in the death penalty, Omar warned.
Omar did not mention Osama bin Laden, the suspected terrorist mastermind who is thought to remain in Afghanistan as a "guest" of the Taliban.
The U.S. has indicated bin Laden and his terrorist network al Qaeda would bear the brunt of any military assault.
Also in his address Omar criticized a Pakistani official for saying Pakistan was at fault for "making" the Taliban.
He said the Taliban "made themselves" through struggle.
If Pakistan helped make the Taliban, Omar asked, then why was he -- a "simple man" from the village of Sangisar -- chosen to be leader when they could have chosen a commander of their choice?
The mention of his hometown was the first time Omar has publicly said where he is from.
Bin Laden 'sighted'
US forces are continuing to mass in the region in preparation for possible strikes on Afghanistan
Meanwhile, in Taliban-controlled eastern Afghanistan, residents have been questioning the Taliban's decision to continue harboring bin Laden and risk U.S. military strikes against the devastated country.
Reports also have surfaced that bin Laden had been sighted in the town of Jalalabad some two weeks ago, but the Taliban say they are shuffling the suspected terrorist around the country.
Some Afghans are wondering if bin Laden is working on his own, and not under Taliban control.
On Tuesday the Taliban's ambassador to Pakistan, Mullaha Abdul Salam Zaeef told CNN's Larry King Live, they were willing to negotiate with the United States on bin Laden's handover, if they were provided with evidence that linked him and his al Qaeda network to last month's attacks on the United States.
"We prefer to the negotiation than the war, because the war is very bad, it has a lot of bad results in the future and this will be increasing the problems, not decreasing," he said.
Without proof of bin Laden's involvement in the attacks, he said the Taliban cannot hand him over to the U.S.
"If Osama Bin Laden is involved …, we need something which is evidence, which is proof of Osama bin Laden, to talk of this option," he said.
The Bush administration claims the Taliban have enough evidence of bin Laden's terrorism ties and refuse to negotiate with the regime.
They have threatened military action if the Taliban do not comply with their demands.
The Taliban have been adamant about not talking about the issue, ignoring advice and proposals from Pakistan -- the only country with ties to the Taliban.
Two Pakistani delegations have traveled to Afghanistan in attempts to convince their neighbor to comply with U.S. demands, to no avail.
-- Journalist Kamal Hyder in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan contributed to this report.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/03/ret.taliban.warning/index.html
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Archangel...
"Any thoughts on whether these are legitimate concerns?"
I contend that whole situation is far bigger than just terrorism
America no longer has the ability to muster up the strength or power it was capable of delivering during the Regan era. Logistically speaking we are currently strung out over several fronts including Bosnia Serbia and Albania as well as trying to engaging in a NEW Global effort to rid Fundamentalist Extremist "religion" that carries the guise of terrorism. We can only spread so far.
If Israel; whom American supports unequivocally, continues to insist that they build this temple(and they are) on land that they have only owned 1% of the time since recorded world history yet forcibly have taken and occupied since the late 1940's all in the name of God
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=191744
Then simply put they are going to turn the Muslim world against us. The entire Muslim world not just the Fundamentalists. Right now Iran is on the brink of War or military coup due to its support for America. As the article I posted here yesterday explains China is Iran’s close friend and ally. This opens up the possibility that the Muslim world has China going directly against America and not just in Taiwan like the General in your article believes. China would be called upon to aid Iran and they would do so whole-heartedly. We get a front going with China and N.Korea will invade S.Korea. That will be the catalyst that gives them the backbone to do what they have been aching to do for many many years now.
Side note. My parents just came back from S.Korea. While there a submarine from N.Korea washed ashore. Many of the subs officers killed themselves. Seven crewmen escaped into the populace where the citizens captured and killed them before the government had a chance. S.Korea has a statue of one of our Generals and they Love Americans for what we have done for them during the Korean conflict.
The Panama Canal is of supreme logistical importance I do not understand why we do not have a permanent military base of operations there.. What did this article say? “any interruption by terrorists, or by the Chinese company that controls the canal, could have catastrophic consequences for U.S. forces in Asia if, say, South Korea was invaded. “
Highlight the part that states OWNED BY A CHINESE COMPANY
If we proceed to use nuclear weapons as Gen Moorer suggests than we may in fact turn China against us as N. Korea borders and is an ally. The problem is that we must have the resolve to do exactly that. I see us with our hands in a big can of worms on the brink of WW3. But we are going to continue to support Israel no matter how may Muslims Israel kills or how bad we look to the rest of the world doing it. I mean don’t you realize that Judaism and thus Israel is the basis of the Christian belief structure.
But I digress…
You do know that only reason that Russia is helping out against the Afghans? Afghanistan is Russia’s equivalent to Americas Vietnam. Russia lost just as mush if not more face than we did when they occupied and were beaten back in bloody mêlée after bloody mêlée. Here is your true wildcard………we start slinging missiles cause our fronts are spread out like butter and what is Russia going to do?
Gotta go for now
All this of course JMO
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
That is good news.
Sara
now this is a good thing>>>>>>>>>
In Brussels, the United States presented NATO with secret details of its evidence against bin Laden. For the first time in its 52-year history, NATO invoked its mutual defense clause and declared the assault Sept. 11 an attack on the 19 countries in the alliance.
....we must maintain that support!
Arch
You've got some great thoughts Mark - a smart reader it seems. Our country has much larger concerns now than minor philosophical differences on a message board. Boy, I sure hope this surgical hit on Afghan doesn't fuel something much larger....I'm concerned.......
Arch
Any thoughts on whether these are legitimate concerns?
Top Military Commanders Warn of Larger, Global War
John Edwards
Wednesday, Oct. 3, 2001
Two of America's top former military commanders warn that America could quickly find itself in a global war.
In an exclusive interview as part of NewsMax's Presidential Briefing series, Adm. Thomas Moorer and Gen. Jack Singlaub reveal several disturbing concerns about a major escalation in the months ahead.
Their interview, America on the Brink of Global War, is part of NewsMax's Presidential Briefing series. For more on the tape, CLICK HERE.
Both have unassailable credentials. Adm. Moorer served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the nation's highest-ranking military official, and helped bring the Vietnam War to an end.
Gen. Singlaub is former chief of staff for U.S. forces in South Korea. In addition to serving as a field commander, he was also assigned to the CIA and is an expert on unconventional warfare.
Moorer and Singlaub have held combat command positions in World War II, Korea and Vietnam.
Both share the view that the likelihood of a greater war is strong, and fear that if several fronts opened up against the U.S. in hot spots like Taiwan and Korea, the results could be catastrophic for the United States.
"It's not like any war we have been in before, but we have got to have it," Adm. Moorer explains.
Moorer and Singlaub say the nature of this war will require several steps, with the first military moves aimed at eliminating terrorist cells.
But Moorer believes that the war will do the job only if we go after the nations that support terrorism, including Iraq, Iran and Syria.
"I think the war is going to broaden. I think that the president made it quite clear that this is a pure case of good vs. evil and those who want to live in peace must unite and eliminate those who want to kill one another," Gen. Singlaub says.
He adds ominously, "We just have to recognize that it's going to develop into a larger war and there are lots of people and nations involved."
In "America on the Brink of Global War," Moorer and Singlaub make several key points, the same ones they would tell the president if they were in the Pentagon today:
Focus on the Likelihood of a Bigger War. Both military commanders insist that while they would have Pentagon strategists working to deal with Osama bin Laden, the Pentagon's main focus should be to prevent and prepare for a major war.
Singlaub explains: "We have to be thinking along those lines and not get ourselves committed in one area."
Possible Flashpoints: Taiwan and Korea. Moorer and Singlaub see these as strong possibilities for the outbreak of a larger war.
Noting the diminished size of the U.S. military, now 40 percent smaller than it was just 10 years ago, a country like China may make a play for Taiwan while American military resources are so focused in the Mideast.
Worse, North Korea may launch its long-awaited invasion of South Korea. More than 30,000 American troops still sit near the Korean DMZ, and Gen. Singlaub, an expert on Korea, doubts U.S. forces could repel an armored invasion. The U.S. may have to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop an advance, he believes.
Moorer adds: "This is the whole point – if the U.S. focuses so much strength in one area," one or more of America's enemies may seize the opportunity to attack.
Oil Kingdoms, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, at Risk. Despite the large U.S. buildup in the Middle East, both commanders believe there is little the U.S. could do to stop Saddam Hussein from invading and capturing Kuwait as he did in 1990. A similar threat exists to Saudi Arabia. Singlaub observed that during the Gulf War the U.S. had five divisions in Germany that were quickly moved to the region, with the air and Navy support to move them there.
That isn't true today, he said. By the time we mobilize to prevent an Iraqi offensive, it will be "too late."
Moorer agrees. He thinks U.S. forces could eventually dislodge Hussein, but it would take much longer and the U.S. could expect heavy casualties this time.
Secure the Panama Canal Now. Both veteran military experts advise the U.S to immediately secure the Panama Canal. Moorer says the U.S. has no troops in Panama now, and we need to make arrangements with the Panamian government to insure there is no interruption of Navy movement between the Atlantic and Pacific.
Singlaub notes that any interruption by terrorists, or by the Chinese company that controls the canal, could have catastrophic consequences for U.S. forces in Asia if, say, South korea was invaded. Both commanders say in such a scenario even a matter of days could prove critical in preserving thousands of American lives.
"We cannot afford to lose the most strategic waterway in the world to our enemies," Gen. Singlaub says.
Get the full story – order your copy of the Moorer-Singlaub interview, which comes with a Special Report, The Threat – Weapons of Mass Destruction, which includes a recently declassified CIA report. CLICK HERE NOW.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/2/222750.shtml
Arch
MY STORY
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That morning I took off from my field in Northern NJ to just bum around as usual in a rented Cessna 172SP and was planning to do the VOR approach at FWN and an ILS at MSV to keep my instrument skills in check, when I climbed out to about 2500 and leveled out to stay under Class B airspace floor, I was right about over Lincoln Park airport (N07) when I glanced back at the city and saw the smoke coming out of WTC (it was a VFR and a million morning, so you could really see far out), "damn! wtf?" I thought as I hit the throttle and went direct to Alpine Tower where I joined the Hudson VFR corridor, and tuned in to the self-annoucement UNICOM freq 123.05. There was all kinds of talk about a "commuter plane gone into WTC", so I also tuned in to 1010 WINS AM newsradio on the ADF receiver and listened in, they hadn't had a clue either, all they were saying that a plane went into the building. Meanwhile I was just heading down the corridor at all the speed that a fully-shoved C-172 throttle can afford and annoucing myself as usual "Spamcan 123, one thousand feet, GWB, southbound", and by the time I made it to about Holland Tunnel I saw a bunch of helicopters around the WTC, smoke billowing out of the #1 tower and the atmosphere of some real big sh*t hitting the fan.
As I'm flying closer, almost opposite the WTC, right next to the Harborside Center in Jersey City, I see this airliner coming down in a steep bank, my first thought was, WTF is this guy doing!??? Why is he diving so steep to take a look at the fire! And it's an airliner! (looked like a 737 to me at the time). I muttered something along the lines "Jeez, this guy is gonna get so fired by his airline, it's not even funny!" The next moment.... it hits the building.... I felt like I was inside a cartoon or a movie, maybe that "Independence Day" flick, at the moment I thought I was seeing things, like this can't be, this isn't real... But I had my camera in hand and snapped virtually a split second later after the impact, I was simply too awestruck when I saw the plane, so it didn't click in me to actually shoot the thing (but if I had a Stinger SAM with me, damn, I wish I did and I would)
Next... I didn't know what to do, but I headed out towards Sandy Hook, called the approach and begged them for flight following, just GET ME OUTTA HERE... they kept me on following until about Colts Neck VOR where they said "unable" and told me I was on my own.... I tried to go back to my field, tuned in the tower... they couldn't hear me, but I could hear that TEB was closed and they were about to get closed and told every aircraft to land.. gave up on the thought of going back to my field and landed at a first field in sight, , where a bunch of other awestruck pilots where trying to get a grasp on what's going on.... After couple of hours it calmed down and airport manager shutdown the place and gave me a lift back to my airport, where I picked up my car... the FBO was closed...
This is so f****ed up, I never felt so helpless, at some point I even feared that people are gonna start shooting at any aircraft flying above them... That's when it dawned on me to just land and deal with the rest of crap later, which I did, I'm here, I'm still sober.
--
HECTOP
PP-ASEL-IA
http://www.maxho.com
maxho_at_maxho.com
Paule "The Walnut" lives!
Today the Taliban informed six U. S. social workers that the impending military action by the United States will not affect their trial. They are accussed of teaching Christianity, which carries the death penality!
muel <g>
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