Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:33:05 AM
My grandparents didn't want to be converted
by wiscmass
Wed Feb 29, 2012 at 05:08 PM PST.
My friend Mets102 has posted a couple of diaries recently about Mormons converting dead Jews to their faith, including Daniel Pearl [ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/29/1069512/-When-Will-it-Stop-Daniel-Pearl-Latest-Dead-Jew-Baptized-by-Mormons (the post to which this is a reply)], who was murdered for no reason other than that he was a Jew, and survivors and victims of the Holocaust [ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/22/1067417/-Want-to-Convert-My-Dead-Relatives-Mormons-I-ll-See-That-and-Raise-You- ], including such notables as Anne Frank and the families of Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal.
All four of my grandparents were posthumously converted too. They were all Holocaust survivors, each of whom had a very large extended family before the Holocaust. Between them, they had but a single living relative after the Holocaust.
And repeatedly, Mets102 and I and several other Jews who have a problem with this have been told we're whining, or "feigning anger," or crying over something that doesn't matter, or complaining for the sake of complaining, or otherwise making a big deal about nothing.
So first, a brief message to many (if not all) of those people who have said some version of this:
Go. Fuck. Yourself. Preferably with a rusty metal implement.
Yes, I know saying that will turn some of you off. I couldn't care less if that bothers you, though, not if you're going to side with the folks saying this doesn't matter.
My grandparents, as I said, were all Holocaust survivors whose entire families were wiped out. My grandparents lived as Jews, they were proud to be Jews, and they went to their graves as Jews. Their relatives who died in the Holocaust were murdered for no reason other than that they were Jews. And indeed, we Jews have a long history of being sent to our deaths for no reason other than that we are Jews and someone else gets it into their head that their religion makes it ok to wipe us off the face of the earth.
We Jews also have a long history of being forced by members of other faiths to abandon our Jewish identity and convert to their faith. They think they're doing us a favor, that they're saving our souls. Because, of course, all Jews are condemned to burn in hell for all eternity. (I can't tell you how many times I've heard that from people who can only be described as "Christian-of-a-certain-variety." Never mind that Jesus was a Jew, and if you insist that all Jews are condemned to burn in hell for all eternity, well, I can't imagine condemning your savior to eternal hellfire would score you any points in the afterlife. But I digress.)
There's something these oppressors of Jews have in common, whether they prefer to murder us all for no reason other than that we are Jews or whether they prefer to harass us or even force us to convert to their faiths when we would not choose to do so on our own. Both groups have decided that there is something so superior about their ideology that makes it not only acceptable but even a moral imperative to wipe any semblance of Jewish identity off the face of the earth.
It really doesn't take a genius to see this for the antisemitism that it is.
And now we have this specific group of assholes who have decided that it's not only acceptable but even a moral imperative to wipe any semblance of Jewish identity even among dead Jews off the face of the earth via this forced conversion of the dead. (Do you want to dispute my characterization of this naarishkeit as "forced conversion"? Hate to break it to you, but when you convert someone who didn't give their consent, that's forced.)
And yet we Jews who voice our displeasure at this are told we're whining. We're feigning anger. We're crying over something that doesn't matter. We're complaining for the sake of complaining. We're making a big deal about nothing.
Which is why I suggest to those of you who say such things that you go fuck yourself with a rusty metal implement.
All too frequently, Jews on this site who complain about antisemitism are told that we're making a big deal about something that doesn't matter, or that the antisemitism we're complaining about isn't antisemitism at all, so we should just sit down and shut the fuck up about it already.
Who the fuck decided that converting Jews to another faith without their permission isn't antisemitic? Who the fuck decided that imposing your faith on another group of people just because you believe your faith is superior isn't a big deal? (Or is it only not a big deal when we're just talking about Jewish victims, living or dead?)
And on a personal level, who the fuck gave you the right to decide that the forcible conversion of my grandparents -- something that they never would have acceded to under any circumstances -- is no big deal, or that complaining about it is just so much faux outrage?
What gives you the right to decide what we as Jews find offensive to us? What gives you the right to tell me that my grandparents' names and legacies aren't threatened when someone substitutes their parochial religious ideology for what my grandparents wanted and lived?
I don't know, maybe you simply don't get it. Maybe you don't understand that, like any other group, there are certain things that are just sacred to Jews, and that attacking those things the way the Mormons who are posthumously and forcibly converting our people to their faith are doing isn't acceptable under any circumstances -- and so much more so when they've admitted wrongdoing for this exact same behavior in the past, they're repeatedly apologized for it, and yet they keep doing the exact same behavior for which they so falsely apologized in the first place.
Maybe this doesn't hurt you, but there are plenty of us who are hurt by it. Just because you aren't hurt doesn't make it ok. And when you so dickishly claim that we are whining, feigning anger, crying over something that doesn't matter, complaining for the sake of complaining, or otherwise making a big deal about nothing, at best you're being an ignorant twit. But you're also defending antisemitism, and there is simply no excuse for that.
So if it's just a matter of ignorance, try learning something instead of insulting us for having the audacity to complain about antisemitism to which you were blind. Ask us why it bothers us rather than imposing your uninformed and obnoxious judgment upon us.
But if it's not just ignorance? Find yourself a rusty implement, putz, and get to work.
© Kos Media, LLC
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/29/1069593/-My-grandparents-didn-t-want-to-be-converted [with comments]
===
Want to Convert My Dead Relatives, Mormons? I'll See That and Raise You
by Mets102
Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 04:21 PM PST.
Many people are aware of the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead [ ], including of Jewish Holocaust victims [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#Jewish_Holocaust_victims ] without the approval of family members. While the LDS church has apologized for the practice, and agreed to not engage in it except at the request of descendants, those apologies and promises ring hollow. Earlier this month, it was reported that the parents [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/mormon-baptism-apology_n_1277359.html ] of famed Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal were posthumously forcibly converted. Today, CNN reported the same fate befell Anne Frank [ http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/22/after-anne-frank-baptism-mormons-vow-to-discipline-members/ ]. I just learned from a friend of mine, who is the grandson of survivors, that his grandparents were forcibly converted after their deaths. It is clear that despite the repeated apologies and promises this practice still continues.
Oftentimes, humor can be an effective response, even to offensive practices. I do not know how many people reading this have already seen it, but my friend whose grandparents were forcibly converted after their deaths sent me the link to this site [ http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/ ]. The premise? So long as they continue forcibly baptizing our dead relatives, we will "convert" their dead relatives to homosexuality. Of course, there is the element of the absurd there, which is what makes this so effective. The truth is that you can "convert" the religion of a dead person as much as you can "convert" a person's sexuality — which, of course, is to say that you simply cannot do so. Still, the stress release involved is fun and the whole process is quite amusing.
A screenshot of the site:
So, if you want to have some fun and protest, in your own little way, just go over to the site and enter a dead Mormon's name or, if you don't know any, the site will search the database and provide one for you. Me? I entered George Romney. Why? A nod to the request of Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel [ http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/02/14/elie_wiesel_to_mitt_romney_tell_mormon_church_to_stop_baptizing_jews_who_died_in_holocaust.html ], who lost his parents in the Holocaust and survived the horrors of Auschwitz and Buchenwald.
My ancestors lived and died as Jews. My grandfather went over to Europe to fight the Nazis during World War II. He enlisted even though the War Department had him listed as dead. He lost his cousin, who was like a brother to him, in Italy. His relatives that remained in Europe, instead of coming to America, like his parents did, were almost all killed by Hitler and his evil henchmen. Today, I live my life as a Jew and I hope I would make Papa (what I always called him) proud. I'll be damned if anyone tells me that any of them are anything other than the proud Jews they lived their lives as.
© Kos Media, LLC
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/22/1067417/-Want-to-Convert-My-Dead-Relatives-Mormons-I-ll-See-That-and-Raise-You- [with comments]
===
(linked in) http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=72128659 (and preceding) and following
by wiscmass
Wed Feb 29, 2012 at 05:08 PM PST.
My friend Mets102 has posted a couple of diaries recently about Mormons converting dead Jews to their faith, including Daniel Pearl [ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/29/1069512/-When-Will-it-Stop-Daniel-Pearl-Latest-Dead-Jew-Baptized-by-Mormons (the post to which this is a reply)], who was murdered for no reason other than that he was a Jew, and survivors and victims of the Holocaust [ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/22/1067417/-Want-to-Convert-My-Dead-Relatives-Mormons-I-ll-See-That-and-Raise-You- ], including such notables as Anne Frank and the families of Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal.
All four of my grandparents were posthumously converted too. They were all Holocaust survivors, each of whom had a very large extended family before the Holocaust. Between them, they had but a single living relative after the Holocaust.
And repeatedly, Mets102 and I and several other Jews who have a problem with this have been told we're whining, or "feigning anger," or crying over something that doesn't matter, or complaining for the sake of complaining, or otherwise making a big deal about nothing.
So first, a brief message to many (if not all) of those people who have said some version of this:
Go. Fuck. Yourself. Preferably with a rusty metal implement.
Yes, I know saying that will turn some of you off. I couldn't care less if that bothers you, though, not if you're going to side with the folks saying this doesn't matter.
My grandparents, as I said, were all Holocaust survivors whose entire families were wiped out. My grandparents lived as Jews, they were proud to be Jews, and they went to their graves as Jews. Their relatives who died in the Holocaust were murdered for no reason other than that they were Jews. And indeed, we Jews have a long history of being sent to our deaths for no reason other than that we are Jews and someone else gets it into their head that their religion makes it ok to wipe us off the face of the earth.
We Jews also have a long history of being forced by members of other faiths to abandon our Jewish identity and convert to their faith. They think they're doing us a favor, that they're saving our souls. Because, of course, all Jews are condemned to burn in hell for all eternity. (I can't tell you how many times I've heard that from people who can only be described as "Christian-of-a-certain-variety." Never mind that Jesus was a Jew, and if you insist that all Jews are condemned to burn in hell for all eternity, well, I can't imagine condemning your savior to eternal hellfire would score you any points in the afterlife. But I digress.)
There's something these oppressors of Jews have in common, whether they prefer to murder us all for no reason other than that we are Jews or whether they prefer to harass us or even force us to convert to their faiths when we would not choose to do so on our own. Both groups have decided that there is something so superior about their ideology that makes it not only acceptable but even a moral imperative to wipe any semblance of Jewish identity off the face of the earth.
It really doesn't take a genius to see this for the antisemitism that it is.
And now we have this specific group of assholes who have decided that it's not only acceptable but even a moral imperative to wipe any semblance of Jewish identity even among dead Jews off the face of the earth via this forced conversion of the dead. (Do you want to dispute my characterization of this naarishkeit as "forced conversion"? Hate to break it to you, but when you convert someone who didn't give their consent, that's forced.)
And yet we Jews who voice our displeasure at this are told we're whining. We're feigning anger. We're crying over something that doesn't matter. We're complaining for the sake of complaining. We're making a big deal about nothing.
Which is why I suggest to those of you who say such things that you go fuck yourself with a rusty metal implement.
All too frequently, Jews on this site who complain about antisemitism are told that we're making a big deal about something that doesn't matter, or that the antisemitism we're complaining about isn't antisemitism at all, so we should just sit down and shut the fuck up about it already.
Who the fuck decided that converting Jews to another faith without their permission isn't antisemitic? Who the fuck decided that imposing your faith on another group of people just because you believe your faith is superior isn't a big deal? (Or is it only not a big deal when we're just talking about Jewish victims, living or dead?)
And on a personal level, who the fuck gave you the right to decide that the forcible conversion of my grandparents -- something that they never would have acceded to under any circumstances -- is no big deal, or that complaining about it is just so much faux outrage?
What gives you the right to decide what we as Jews find offensive to us? What gives you the right to tell me that my grandparents' names and legacies aren't threatened when someone substitutes their parochial religious ideology for what my grandparents wanted and lived?
I don't know, maybe you simply don't get it. Maybe you don't understand that, like any other group, there are certain things that are just sacred to Jews, and that attacking those things the way the Mormons who are posthumously and forcibly converting our people to their faith are doing isn't acceptable under any circumstances -- and so much more so when they've admitted wrongdoing for this exact same behavior in the past, they're repeatedly apologized for it, and yet they keep doing the exact same behavior for which they so falsely apologized in the first place.
Maybe this doesn't hurt you, but there are plenty of us who are hurt by it. Just because you aren't hurt doesn't make it ok. And when you so dickishly claim that we are whining, feigning anger, crying over something that doesn't matter, complaining for the sake of complaining, or otherwise making a big deal about nothing, at best you're being an ignorant twit. But you're also defending antisemitism, and there is simply no excuse for that.
So if it's just a matter of ignorance, try learning something instead of insulting us for having the audacity to complain about antisemitism to which you were blind. Ask us why it bothers us rather than imposing your uninformed and obnoxious judgment upon us.
But if it's not just ignorance? Find yourself a rusty implement, putz, and get to work.
© Kos Media, LLC
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/29/1069593/-My-grandparents-didn-t-want-to-be-converted [with comments]
===
Want to Convert My Dead Relatives, Mormons? I'll See That and Raise You
by Mets102
Wed Feb 22, 2012 at 04:21 PM PST.
Many people are aware of the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead [ ], including of Jewish Holocaust victims [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#Jewish_Holocaust_victims ] without the approval of family members. While the LDS church has apologized for the practice, and agreed to not engage in it except at the request of descendants, those apologies and promises ring hollow. Earlier this month, it was reported that the parents [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/mormon-baptism-apology_n_1277359.html ] of famed Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal were posthumously forcibly converted. Today, CNN reported the same fate befell Anne Frank [ http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/22/after-anne-frank-baptism-mormons-vow-to-discipline-members/ ]. I just learned from a friend of mine, who is the grandson of survivors, that his grandparents were forcibly converted after their deaths. It is clear that despite the repeated apologies and promises this practice still continues.
Oftentimes, humor can be an effective response, even to offensive practices. I do not know how many people reading this have already seen it, but my friend whose grandparents were forcibly converted after their deaths sent me the link to this site [ http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/ ]. The premise? So long as they continue forcibly baptizing our dead relatives, we will "convert" their dead relatives to homosexuality. Of course, there is the element of the absurd there, which is what makes this so effective. The truth is that you can "convert" the religion of a dead person as much as you can "convert" a person's sexuality — which, of course, is to say that you simply cannot do so. Still, the stress release involved is fun and the whole process is quite amusing.
A screenshot of the site:
So, if you want to have some fun and protest, in your own little way, just go over to the site and enter a dead Mormon's name or, if you don't know any, the site will search the database and provide one for you. Me? I entered George Romney. Why? A nod to the request of Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel [ http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/02/14/elie_wiesel_to_mitt_romney_tell_mormon_church_to_stop_baptizing_jews_who_died_in_holocaust.html ], who lost his parents in the Holocaust and survived the horrors of Auschwitz and Buchenwald.
My ancestors lived and died as Jews. My grandfather went over to Europe to fight the Nazis during World War II. He enlisted even though the War Department had him listed as dead. He lost his cousin, who was like a brother to him, in Italy. His relatives that remained in Europe, instead of coming to America, like his parents did, were almost all killed by Hitler and his evil henchmen. Today, I live my life as a Jew and I hope I would make Papa (what I always called him) proud. I'll be damned if anyone tells me that any of them are anything other than the proud Jews they lived their lives as.
© Kos Media, LLC
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/22/1067417/-Want-to-Convert-My-Dead-Relatives-Mormons-I-ll-See-That-and-Raise-You- [with comments]
===
(linked in) http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=72128659 (and preceding) and following
Greensburg, KS - 5/4/07
"Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty."
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upon the Right of Election, 1790
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