I spent the time to reply to TF's post, only to have it deleted as I tried to post this. So, this is now a standalone answer to a deleted post.

TF, I don't want to engage in conversations about personalities. It is not constructive.

Personally, I find very few negative comments on this board about the company to be anything but personal "axes to grind" because people are sick of the low share price. That's fair, but it doesn't add substantive value to any discussion of the company.

RD actually provides value on occasion with his negative posts, when they contain useful information. Individual shareholders on this board who complain repetitively seem to think that Solomon should consider their personal financial well being over his five year plan. That's not going to happen, as we know, so what good is the repetition? The incessant whining of some members about dilution is just annoying and boring. Nobody likes the dilution.

In response to your question about whether I've initiated a negative post: without going back through my posts (because I really don't care very much), I can tell you off-hand that in the last two days I replied to one of emptyone's posts with a much more negative interpretation than he had of Solomon's answer to a question about dilution. I wasn't supporting a negative conclusion, I was suggesting that it will get worse. I was negative.

Does anybody who reads this board think the "SIAF cheerleaders" support or like Solomon's policy of dilution? If so, that is an incorrect perception. We are as angry about it as anyone, but we don't find it useful to complain about it hourly. The fact remains that he always intended to grow the company this way; he didn't lie to us about it. But he screwed up by not having a Plan B when market conditions changed, and his original plan began to destroy the share price.

Your idea that the supporters of the company who go on the investor tour are pollyanna acolytes who worship Solomon is far from the truth. We're there to ask questions at every turn, and to observe as much as we can.

I will, Emilez.

In case you don't know, free members can use all of iHub's paid services once a week during 'happy hour,' which is from 4 to 5 pm EST each Friday (for an hour after the stock market closes). Of course, that's not very convenient for European members.

Based on the demeaning responses to my straightforward reply, I've decided against posting any impressions or news from the trip. No trip report will be published. I will share my impressions privately with selected members who add value to the board (in my opinion), and will share less knowledge and insight publicly going forward.

As a new moderator (I applied the day joenatural became mod), I became an active contributor again. I re-read the terms of usage and forum rules. It seems that I could delete these posts that denigrate members who are going on the trip. But I don't want to set the same ugly, repetitive, attacking tone.

The demeaning posts speak for themselves, reflecting their authors' personal agendas.

I don't deny that I support SIAF and hope for success, but I am a natural skeptic (that's why I went on last year's tour) and I am not blind to the problems of the company. Comments, at a minimum, were unfair. I have been critical of Solomon as often as not.

Posts such as these responses undermine the aims of the forum by defaming and sabotaging honest exchanges of real information about SIAF.

In order for me (and the others) to get a business visa to China, the company issues an invitation letter that guarantees that it will be responsible for our expenses on the tour. And they do pay for almost everything during the tour dates. Participants need to get to Guangzhou on their own, and pay for their expenses outside the tour dates. They put us in a Hilton around the corner from the office in Guangzhou, and at (communist) party hotels in the rural areas. Solomon and his team orchestrate every detail of the entire tour very professionally.

I don't know how one gets invited, and I don't know how much longer the investor tours will continue (as the demonstration farms prove themselves). I can tell you that there was virtually no space remaining on the buses last year.

I'll ask Solomon when I see him. I think the original invitation was because of early investing and active involvement with the company.

I don't have an exact agenda, emptyone. Once we gather at the main office in Guangzhou, we're under Solomon's direction and given precise schedules each day. Edited to answer your question: the tour dates are December 12-19.

Last year, we spent a day or two in Guangzhou on the front end (some participants came one day later than others), with meetings in the office, intro to staff, greeting dinner with senior staff, visits to WC1 and future site of WC2 and TC, a dinner at Leone's.

Generally, there were countless bus rides, to and from airports and for long distances to and between SIAF sites. The second or third morning (depending on when a person arrived), we flew to Xining and spent 2 nights, 2 and a half days at SJAP, touring the operations, driving out to the fields where the special feed is grown, participating in presentations by SJAP management and discussions with professors who are involved with improving cattle feed and fertilizer, dinner at Bull Restaurant (where, at my table, the most distinguished professor tried to make me participate in a drinking game that none of us understood the rules for. I had to drop out, it was just about drinking more and more shots of something strong.) SJAP is truly committed to CSR (corporate social responsibility) employing students and graduates of a local agricultural trade college, and a local agricultural research university.

The next morning, we visited the brand new Qinghai Natural History museum, with fascinating exhibits (and not enough time to take it all in) before we flew to Hunan and rode for many hours to Linli where we had dinner with local government officials who are involved with HSA. The next day was spent at HSA, and touring some other companies that the government officials also sponsor, then flying back to Guangzhou. (I think there's a high speed train between Hunan and Guangzhou that I hope we'll take this time. The Guangzhou East train station is a two block walk from SIAF's offices, rather than another one hour bus ride from the airport.)

Once back in Guangzhou, we toured Guandong province facilities for 2 days (prawn farms, fish research station, fish farm, HU plantation, cattle farm), and then back to Guangzhou for wrap-up meetings and departure day.

There were different managers along for different portions of the tour. A senior marketing guy, Jonathan, and the company attorney, Anthony, were always with us, as was Solomon.

I'm really looking forward to this trip, as so much of what we saw under construction last year will be in actual operation!

Of course, you always base your assertions on actual information.

I should know better, although I wasn't challenging, just conversing.

Haven't departed yet, FT, although I will go to Hong Kong for a few days before the tour starts. Once in China, access to the internet is not widely available (and restricted, where it is available), especially in rural areas, i.e., where SIAF's operations are located.

I don't know about HB's posting schedule, but I expect to see him in China and I doubt that he's has stopped adding investors. If we like what we see, I expect that his group's investments will increase after the tour.

I believe that a number of new buildings and operations came online in 2013 at HSA. I don't know how their assets are accounted for, but HSA facilities, and the equipment inside them, have certainly increased significantly this year.

Thank you. I am packing for the trip as I write this.

One thing nobody commented about was my use of "pioneering" in my reply to Bill. When I use the word, I always think of this:

So, I think I should also emphasize that the expectations of some of those who post on the board are just plain unrealistic. The financing stuff that Solomon is trying to do is not simple. But when he accomplishes it, with the help of the BOD, SIAF will be in a new league altogether.

Agreed, RD. There are options.

My comment is based on past behavior by the company.

In fact, I consider the prepared remarks from the conference call as much as the answer in the Q&A:

To me, the implication is that if they are not able to raise funds from one of these potential debt instruments, they will need to use stock once again.

I didn't interpret that the same way you do, Empty. To me, it was saying between the lines that even if there is more dilution, we are very close to the end of it. But I think there may be dilution, if they don't get one of their financing deals together before they need to settle big debts.

Thanks, Viking!

Yes, Qinhai, Hunan, and Guangdong provinces.

It looks like the trip will be a repeat of last year's, except hopefully we'll try another one or two Leonie's restaurants, and see the WC1 in operation along with WC2, and the new trading center. I'm also interested to see all the progress at PF1, Linli, and everywhere else, really. It will be absolutely freezing -- and well below freezing -- in Xining. We spent two nights and two and half days there last year, including a tour of another abattoir facility. This year, it will be SJAP's abattoir! Can't wait!

Bill,

We all fail to appreciate that every step the company takes is pioneering for a Chinese microcap. To me, that means that every single step they take to gain institutional support or have an S-1 approved is met with exceptional and suspicious scrutiny, so of course things will take much longer than is expected.

I'm going on the Investor Tour again next week, with keen interest, and will keep ears and eyes open. I will write another trip report after returning.

Happy holidays!

Good point!

Not sure, Viking. Do they want to bill their monthly fees for the longest possible time? Do they have problems with SIAF? Are they just on a slower track than we'd like because they are cautious? I have no idea, except that if they have a problem, I believe we'd have an inkling of it by now through some grapevine or another.

Three representatives from Penser joined the Investor Tour last year. Over drinks in a small, informal setting, we heard encouraging and positive indications from them. In retrospect, I think they may have been trying to close a potentially lucrative client, and it was "whatever they want to hear" sales talk.

The idea that "everyone knew except Solomon" is likely inaccurate. I do think that perhaps he was overly optimistic about the FN listing schedule, but he was led to believe that the process would take about three months.

Now, nearly a year has passed. For the first quarter, really the first five months, Solomon believed a solution was at hand -- the FN listing. Well, that didn't work. Unfortunately, it's not happening on a favorable timetable. I believe that SIAF has responded to all of Penser's requests. Penser continues to reset the "finish line."

I hope they'll reach a satisfactory resolution while Solomon is in Stockholm.

The areas of business that have been under Solomon's control have thrived, or seem resilient to setbacks. Those that are not under his control have been problematic. ... Just sayin' ...

I am rightfully frustrated, along with you. But the upside is real. Since holding my shares will not cause a financial burden, I will hold for the rewards that I believe are ahead.

I think that there is a third option. Do both:

AND

Doing both is the best approach. I am convinced that Solomon is working very diligently to get more conventional financing and end dilution. This is not easy. Yes, it took him too long to listen. But he can't just cause it to happen; it's a process that he doesn't control. It is a very difficult process, given all the factors. Shareholders will benefit more if they encourage and support his activities -- and I don't mean giving him more of our money, necessarily. I mean "trying to convince the market and change the way people perceive this company."

Certain people are recklessly and systematically calling Solomon a fraud. This is not helpful in any way, and truly appears to be part of an agenda.

While we can see that Solomon has reduced his capex requirements and is trying to raise capital, our best plan is to openly support the company. Explain its flaws (its big flaw, if you will), but also describe the remarkable upside potential.

I think that we should all try to convince the market that SIAF is a great investment, even if we're not happy with Solomon's diluting behavior. Solomon isn't a fraud. He's a man who has built a company that currently has $275 million in net assets, out of virtually nothing, in just four years or so. He told us how he would do it, and he updated us as it was done. You've acknowledged that the dilution created the low share price, and to an extent this is the reason you're an investor. It's why many of us are investors.

Unfortunately, Solomon doesn't operate on our timetable. He's not beholden, and it just isn't that simple to magically create an alternative source of financing. We have no clue about the complexities of doing business in China, with at least two (sometimes conflicting) levels of government involvement on most of the deals.

We're at the tail end of the dilution, so I think it's smarter to promote the company (with caveats, of course). Although it continues to be painful to watch the share price languish and deteriorate, it is fun to buy at these low share prices, IMO. I know that I have painlessly averaged down. When SIAF finally does reach its proper valuation, I look forward to joining Petrejus' party in the Solomon Islands!

Not this time, labroj. I have long standing plans to travel with a friend, and can't change them.

Next time, perhaps!

Sly,

I've been away for a few weeks, and just catching up. Wow, the negativity has turned nasty, and there's not much value in most of the posts!

Joe's "information from the 2010 auditor" was obtained from the wrong auditor. He mistakenly interviewed a different auditor with the name of Madsen. The "information" is not informed, related, relevant, nor material. It is bogus.

I've been away; just catching up. I fully support your idea.

In addition to the info in the 10Q, here is info I uncovered earlier about the Leonie restaurant that we visited on the investor tour: http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=89375342

Unpleasant, indeed!

No idea, really, Viking. Just my wishful thinking, as I read the speculations of others.

Whatever size the "small stake," it will determine a total market value of SJAP. We want SIAF to continue to hold a significant majority of their current stake. Hopefully, the SJAP valuation is really high, and the small stake is just enough to eliminate the need for dilution.

Not entirely off topic, as any new war will affect the stock market.

We need to do something meaningful to show that use of chemical weapons against citizens is not tolerated. But I am completely against the wars that the U.S. military-industrial complex creates.

I remember when the U.S.A. was admired globally for the power of its example. Today, the U.S.A. is despised globally for the examples of its power. (note: I paraphrase Bill Clinton)

Do you have any suggestions?

I fear that if we launch a precise, targeted strike to eradicate Assad and his leadership team, that horrific internal strife will ensue, with various factions destroying countless innocents in the grab for power. It is a terrible situation any way I look at it. But the U.S. should not go to war again.

Isn't the XIN deal exactly what shareholders don't want: dilution? This is not a loan, because it's convertible to shares at the current market price and below.

Do we want Solomon to "borrow" $13M payable with 30M shares upon conversion?

If I recall, didn't Solomon say on the call that he would not want a convertible deal, unless on favorable terms?



... Co announced that the Company has entered into an agreement with TPG, under which TPG will invest $108.6 mln through the purchase of convertible notes and common shares. Under the agreement, TPG has agreed to purchase 1) convertible notes due 2018 in the aggregate principal amount of $75.8 mln, and 2) $32.9 mln worth of common shares. The convertible notes carry an annual cash coupon rate of 5.0% and will be convertible into Xinyuan's common shares at an initial conversion price of US$6.00 per ADS.

The common shares will be issued at US$5.48 per ADS ...

Thank you for clarifying this, Rnilsson.

We are speculating about an inquiry, so let's try to maintain perspective. There is no promise of anything. George may be giving an example to prove that since he and Nisse joined the board, they have focused on improving shareholder value.

I do believe they've worked hard (and well) on doing just that. We can see the steps they've taken to position Sino Agro Food for institutional interest and investment. Two of the most important things are the S-1 (essential, IMO), the Certified Advisor (credible, independent due diligence), as it's forced the company to new levels of compliance and professionalism that are suitable for higher exchanges. But these processes are taking a really long time, and it has been frustrating.

I don't think we should get overly excited about the mention of an inquiry in the conference call. George would not be allowed to tell us of such an inquiry if it isn't true. It is encouraging news, but it illustrates a possibility, not an actual done deal.

Having said that, on the upside, one possibility could be that such a "very premier equity fund" takes a small stake in SJAP. That doesn't rule out -- actually might help -- a later spinout. And could replace the need for the bond or selling HU, etc. -- raising capital they need without further dilution.

It is too late for me to edit, but I see that I was auto corrected to 'dissent' when I intended to type 'descent.'

I won't speculate on puns or Freudian slips.

I don't have a perfect memory, but here's how I recall that it was explained to me when I questioned the high costs and risks of operating restaurants last September:

SIAF's arrangement with Leonie's is similar to their arrangements with the Fish Farm JVs. SIAF contracts to build out the restaurants, so the company is not responsible for any big capital expenses. Actually, the contrary.

Once operational, SIAF becomes Leonie's exclusive supplier, so the real value long term is realized at the wholesale and distribution levels, where the company gains an automatic customer.

I think that my rhetorical question (from March 31) may be part of the reason that sleepy cod profits are down:

http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=86273467

I wonder if new government policies against "the appearance of affluent living" will affect other company plans? China's emerging middle class may need to submerge for awhile ...

I didn't go back to look at details or verify, but I think I remember speculation on this based on the S-1 registration not being below book value ...

One thing to remember, with respect to the plantation business, is that some of the land that SIAF is granted by the Chinese government can only be used to grow crops.

That's why PF1 came online well after PF2. It was built on land that was reserved for crops, and had to be demolished and rebuilt on another area of the land which was not suitable for crops (and thus required significant earth moving, taking out part of a hill). The local government had approved their location, but the central government noticed the building from satellite views and made them restore it to a crop field (if I recall correctly).

Should Solomon let the crop-only land lie fallow? Could SIAF's land rights be jeopardized if they did not operate as the government desires? I think that working with the Chinese government is a delicate matter, and that Solomon does it pretty well.

challe, Solomon is Malaysian, of Chinese dissent. I was told that his grandparents left China, but they always encouraged their grandson to go back there.

Solomon does love the HU plantation, but he is a shrewd guy. From what I've read, Dragon Fruit (HU) crops take three years before they produce at full capacity. Isn't this the third season?

Solomon answered a question about HU and immortal vegetables by saying he didn't know the answer, but was following the recommendation of his professor. Perhaps he's been doing his utmost to improve the plantation and sell it at a better valuation than he could have before this third growing season ends. Maybe it will be the solution after all.

I read your message on my iPhone and then checked my original. The link is correct, but the images don't show up on my phone. So I went to the computer, and they appear on the page. So, I "viewed the image in another window" and it's 8 photos all in one image! Probably too large for the phone.

Here's the giant image: http://www.sinoagrofood.com/sites/default/files/08152013Pics_SJAP-all_web.jpg?1377218055

New photos of the abattoir, etc. are up on Sino Agro's website:
http://www.sinoagrofood.com/?q=content%2Fconstruction-progresses-well-abattoir-deboning-factory-and-related-packaging-facilities

LOL! Stolpen is correct about you!