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That was contained within the post itself:
I wouldn't even want to take a guess as we've now seen as of late anything is possible, and movement which has nothing to do reality being seen more and more, on top of not too much history (MM) to draw from...
I'm an industry operator, so my interests are always most in company specs. (And first hand/intimate knowledge of most of these guys).
There is another company that claims I believe 59 retail locations, and 8? cultivation?, when the reality is similar, they only have about a dozen (retail) operating, and half the cultivation are not as well.
MedMen Florida, the same deal. License(d) for 25, yet none have touched on how many are open or any costs associated with the same. (Call it 2MM per to be generous including inventory and a year reserves on top of locations and build outs, etc). So now we are up to possibly 38 of the claimed total not currently operational?
I know how the boards are.....any and everybody has an "agenda", so, I'm trying to be very careful while pointing out potential negatives (and there are many lol) that I wouldn't doubt it might reach unreasonably high levels just due to how the market reacts to various things.
But how many of the general public chasing things up know the above and previous (that half at most actually operating....)
I'd have another question for anyone deep in MedMen:
Who (exactly) designed the NV cultivation facility?
How many revisions have been required in the build out due to design and engineering mistakes?
What is/was the total delays (time) due to multiple corrections and revisions on the build out?
(I do have an idea as to the answers......maybe from crews working the site/facility....maybe from employees..........maybe all.....)
My only concern would be at some point, any and all issues are going to be general knowledge and taken into consideration...(emotion, news, then actual operations and numbers, etc)
Personally, I'm someone happy with gains, whatever, whenever those may be, and learned many years ago to be happy with such. I played most Canadian's 17' into end of year and walked away....Some I left some on the table, some turned out well with re entry 6 months later....but I'm more a longer term guy, and okay with taking a position, taking gains, and giving things 6 months+/- to settle back down, etc, or whatever called for depending on movement. (My personal strategy and plays, which I tend to keep to myself)
Someone stated 100.....certainly not impossible given the emotion(s) of the market, but that's for people to decide and establish for themselves and their own positions (entry/exit)....going to be interesting to watch, that's for sure.
Lot of companies "playing the hype", and great for a well informed investor/trader if positioned well prior, but as someone neck deep in the industry (nationwide) day to day, I see a lot of questionable statements and behavior..and claiming 79 locations operational when only maybe 30 in reality is something people might want to be aware of....
(Get all 79 operational, and it's a monster that will perform extremely well far into the future I'm sure...
I would confidently state they'll be awarded at least 2 of the 6, and given the party charged with heading their activities (Kramar), possibly more. There are a lot of variables in the LV dispensary market, in the sense that 1 superior location can outperform 6 mediocre, etc. Add on vertical integration and depending on product quality and exposure, that can also play a significant role in dispo performance.
I haven't heard the final post stats of the Sept round so don't know the total app's submitted in each category (total app's/total applicants, etc) so difficult to pinpoint an estimate date. (Mandatory approve/deny period would end Dec 20, Nov 20 entirely possible but depends on their app load/processing)
Some corrections if I may...
That's actually up to the market, and no more based on fact than any other (cannabis) company receiving those up to 10 times greater with much less to speak of (same old story)...
I hope all positioned well yesterday, and while I myself made a comment which could be considered on the negative side, (just the facts), rarely does the market react with such in mind, and this was quite an easy call/play today.
The movement today and to come in future an easy call knowing market psychology.
(I don't agree, I don't support, and I think nonsense, but we're all trading movement and perception/psychology, and holdings and news sure to feed it into the future.....)
Plus it's that time of the year (elections, additional states, etc)...
In case people curious about NV/Vegas op valuations, a 25k cultivation just sold for $27MM.
What a funny board.......
So, 2 guys walk into a bar, they control a CA 56k depped GH actively pulling staggered rounds, a 27k indoor in NV, and have 6 app's in on a limited stakeholder only process, one of several, of which they'll most likely get at least 2 or 3 and will know within about a month give or take, and they both order a beer and a shot and are discussing an additional overseas acquisition.
What color shoes is the bartender wearing?
Exactly!! :) LOLOL
I don't think such should be entertained, especially with the pipeline in place, and previous comment (on other company acquisition, as well as the target purchased) just supports expansion and growth through licensing process.
The greater one's holdings, the greater the revenue, the more it's worth....
One of my TRTC concerns more and more as of late is their progress and oversight on site development and build outs.. Whoever is point has got to go. We're taking over a 65k which went from breaking ground to plants plugged in 5 months at most, (Empty prepped parcel to approval and commencement) which is not uncommon....
But then again, when there are people paying $630MM for a handful of licenses and empty storefronts/grows,who knows lol....
Next WeHo update is Monday (they are still projecting end of the month for decisions as of last update). NJ projected Nov 1st, which I still believe is wishful thinking but no updates. Well into NV recent stakeholder only process as well. (Almost a month, decisions/notifications most likely within the upcoming/2nd month....and stated Fremont area property secured.
3+ weeks away from elections which will carry quite a bit of news (additional states and Sessions (Pete) up, so......
Given the interest by beverage companies, target would also be to get that line up and distributed statewide asap. My personal opinion would be they should have utilized Carnegie as a dedicated (beverage) facility. (There could be potential interest in that product line itself. Implementing that line within a mixed facility (cultivation, retail) could make it less attractive in the future...
No estimate/guess. Who knows.
And they're overpaying to the point it'll be a decade till they break even....(Even with rec, even with 280e exemption(s)..
I have a post over there people might find interesting....which includes what one of these $26MM dispo's (a rental in a strip mall with 500 patients) looks like, as well as their $3-5MM+ annual lease payments on their cultivation sites...
Of course, many of their holdings not operational as well....
$26MM per operation/license......that's "A list" (x 2 and far beyond) pricing for a "distressed/B list" operator...
(Or is it $24MM per.....either way, up to 10x too much....)
I'd be curious if anyone is able to explain and justify a $26MM per location (and license) price paid for sparsely designed and under performing dispensaries in markets to hold additional licensing opportunities through application, for rented storefronts and leased cultivation sites, with I believe the cumulative (multi state) monthly lease payments totaling about $10MM+ annually. (Cultivation only, and probably not all). The majority are not operational.
New York facilities lease agreement:
The Company acquired PharmaCann’s New York facility for $30 million in the sale-leaseback transaction. Concurrent with the closing, the Company and PharmaCann entered into a lease for an initial term of 15 years, with two five-year lease extension options. The lease provides for an initial base rent of $319,580 per month, subject to annual increases of the greater of 4% or 75% of the consumer price index. The lease also provides for a property management fee payable to the Company equal to 1.5% of the then-current base rent throughout the term, and supplemental base rent for the first five years of the term at a rate of $105,477 per month. Together, the annualized initial base rent, property management fee and supplemental base rent equate to approximately 17.2% of the purchase price of the New York facility.
Massachusetts lease agreement:
the Company entered into a long-term, triple-net lease agreement with the PharmaCann subsidiary, which intends to operate the property upon completion of development as a medical-use cannabis cultivation and processing facility in accordance with Massachusetts medical-use cannabis regulations. The initial term of the lease is 15.25 years, with two options to extend the term for two additional five-year periods. The lease provides for an initial annualized aggregate base rent of $2,682,500, payable monthly, which is equal to 14.5% of the sum of the purchase price of the property and the Construction Funding, subject to an initial six month base rent abatement. The aggregate base rent is subject to 3.25% annual increases during the term of the lease, and the PharmaCann subsidiary is also responsible for paying the Company a property management fee equal to 1.5% of the then-current base rent. The PharmaCann subsidiary's obligations under the lease are guaranteed by all affiliates operating in the cannabis industry, including any entity formed during the term of the lease.
One of their $26MM dispensaries in a leased storefront.
When all is said and done, premium "A list" prices were paid for a distressed company with very little real estate, which is, at best, "B list".
Truly the greatest "sucker deal" to date in the industry.
I'd have to disagree. Stats alone declare it a 137MM market (21MM population-116MM visit(ors), one of largest in the nation.
(CO-88MM, NV 53MM, CA 291MM, NJ 200MM, AZ 50MM, IL 130MM-200MM, etc)
Granted possibly a larger portion of 55+, but that is, as pointed out the fastest growing segment of the industry, and it's becoming much more accepted than some might think with that demographic, especially CBD/High CBD/THC products. Remove that demo, and market still quite large...
We have a client in his 60's, non drinker/smoker, military and Congress background and family as well, and he and his circle have now become heavy CBD consumers for various reasons (long story).
My principle FL argument has been premium acquisitions, as is my position for the industry in general, when the future holds application processes, etc. As previous, one group even paying $105MM not too long ago, and another $50MM+ (53?).
I have quite a few associates asking to be on the FL op waiting list for quite a while now LOL.....(ie: "Put me down for southern FL op(s), I want in" lol....That's the case with all the nicer climates though (CA, AZ, NV, FL).....very desirable by industry personnel....
All about positioning for adult use as well, which will certainly occur at some point. "Bigger picture" per se....adult use, as well as widespread beverage production and such, quite the upside for FL.
Florida actually had some significant news and changes the past week.
"Dodson’s ruling could open up Florida, which has experienced sizzling growth, to additional opportunities for MMJ businesses."
So much for the 2 FL acquisitions this year, 1 for $50MM+, 1 for $100MM+.
A.C has embraced it to the fullest since the start.
Bud-and-breakfasts. Paint-and-smoke nights. Are these the kinds of events the city can look forward to in an age of legalized recreational marijuana?
Mayor Frank Gilliam thinks so. In fact, he told a room full of entrepreneurs, residents and activists Thursday night the industry has the potential to be the “new gold rush.”
Atlantic City mayor says legal cannabis 'new gold rush' (6 months old)
The dedication and level of certainty here is fascinating....
What an interesting board......
Canadian producers-While they may currently have several advantages, those (few) advantages mean very little in the larger picture.
Their quality has never been worthy of note,especially compared to U.S, and a good example is a recent failure making the rounds of a 1MM sq. ft., 200,000 plant, 15,000kg crop and site. Many are questioning the authenticity of those pictures.
Unfortunately, those are still pictures from a video, which is also available if one looks around. (This week revealed significant crop failures from several operators, including one in Florida, all from extremely large and well funded facilities and operators.
Furthermore, there is tremendous activity by the very same regarding numerous operations globally who operate for much less.
They are years behind the U.S, and such can be displayed by yet another (extremely) large Canadian recently launching a "new" product, which is essentially "dry sift" lolol....
The most significant advantage they have at the moment is U.S operators not embracing global opportunities, but that is also changing rapidly as we speak.
As alcohol is always the best analogy, it is no more than American brewers having a concern over Canadian brewers, when Canadian exports (into the U.S) for adult use or even medical isn't likely.
One may cite the recent approval for Canadian material into the U.S to a research project, but this has little significance as any and all U.S subjects requiring the very same can order from U.S suppliers online. (At most, that was for a couple ounces or a pound at most of CBD oil).
I just don't see it......
I think people would be quite surprised if they knew the amount of effort (and interest) from the industry nationwide dedicated to this...
6 weeks to go...
But you know what's really funny....
Pipeline hasn't even started dropping yet ;)
And those easily total 8 figures "in real life" lol...(facility by facility up and running, and all required....but with "organic growth" approach, should be a 2-1 return or better give or take....ie: 2MM to establish a 4-6-8MM retail location, etc....
It seems as though many claims were made out of suiting the narrative on that issue, as individual/principal of the entity (Valiente) is a Tarukino principal, and (Tarukino) has been in existence several years (3-4?) and products stocked at Diego Pellicer, universally deemed as the "most expensive dispo in the world".
They did a picture many months before the announcement that looked like they were taking the Tarukino Vertus and working a IVXX branding and distribution deal. (Probably along the lines of they (TRTC) provide/utilize licensed (CA) facilities, provide starting material, distribution throughout CA and possibly NV, and so on). Again, possibly an issue of either complete industry ignorance, or deliberately misleading statements, including TRTC management were members of Valiente, which one can easily and quickly verify themselves.
As beverages probably the greatest potential market at the moment, and further illustrated by capturing the interest of Alcohol (and now non alcohol), could be extremely wise. My only issue is it has been stated incorporating such into Dyer a possibility, while a Beverage manufacturing facility on a larger scale would require much more than a portion of Dyer, and Carnegie currently sitting with cultivation/manufacturing permit ready to go....and a perfect facility for such....and starting material can be acquired wholesale (from NorCal larger out's) preserving the (Carnegie) footprint for manufacturing, bottling, distribution, etc. (Dyer retail and cultivation. To reduce the footprint of cultivation unwise when another building more suitable for entire beverage operation sites available)
I have no doubt beverage line (as a whole) could have great success (statewide), so, personally, I would establish the operation as such. (Large scale production and distribution facility). (Easier from the start then having issues later as not enough space, etc)
It actually is difficult to keep track of, and note there is much I excluded for various reasons...
San Leandro has been in limbo for a while, which could be 100 different reasons why (or dozens combined), but I do know 3 statements made in the last several weeks or so (CC call through last week) stating "about a month"....
(Personally, with no direct knowledge, the progress seemed to indicate (to me) they were trying to move the permit/location)....Guess not, and "about a month" is a pretty specific statement, so......we'll see......
The Oakland (?) grow the same, but recently stated some issues with hardware (equipment) and upgrades, which could also explain some delays as well. I always get confused is the Hegenburger (sp?) a separate site than Oakland, or were they moving the Oakland to a larger site, etc.....so.....I'm not well versed on those, and again, delays, so, I stay away from those. I'm very firm about what I speak of.
Point being, there may be even more progress than previous post, but since uncertain of status...I don't include.
It certainly appears as though such oversight is intentional as opposed to simply ignorance, as why would one spend time on a TRTC board but not discuss, nor have an interest in TRTC matters.
I can definitely see the argument (and would agree) that some matters are indeed currently speculative.
WeHo (several applications, 4?), and New Jersey (4 applications) are , if not long shots, 50/50 chance would be reasonable due to extreme competition, and in WeHo case, as mentioned many times, it not being a traditional process/guidelines, etc.
But worthy of note would be WeHo, per 15th update looking at about 6 weeks to complete process, and NJ process, per the state, November 1st, although again, I think they might be underestimating.
That's 8 licenses pending with outcome 60 days or less.
Speculation a reason to dismiss? I wouldn't necessarily think so.
Then you have matters such as Nevada stakeholder only licensing (Very short window, deadline this week actually I believe (21st?) and stated last week Fremont area location was (already) secured. It was also stated I believe target 3-4 applications/licenses.
As it's a stakeholder only process, much greater chance than 50/50 wouldn't necessarily be unreasonable, and I think it would actually be quite surprising if they did not receive what they sought. Fremont location alone great promise, all others "gravy".
That's 4 more licenses pending with an outcome of 60-90 days. (90 maximum to award per regs, 60 isn't unreasonable..)
Then you have physical locations currently in process from operational through construction.
Nevada cultivation now in week 16(?), and recently stated full production by NY's, which I had stated and believe (for everything 100% production)
Nevada manufacturing awaiting approval to commence.
SA retail and cultivation (Dyer) going now on month 4 of construction, and the permitting process one that upon completion, final permit issued and may commence, with CA licenses being rubber stamp.
That's 1 retail, 2 cultivation, 1 manufacturing in progress. (zero speculation)
Then you have misc matters such as Nevada SS 40k (stated as design and engineering), SL and NorCal cultivation, the former stated as October, the latter as underway, but both being processes I'm not well versed on and seem to have had numerous delays, as well as Carnegie that there seems to be some speculation on final use, but currently in SA P2 for retail as well as cultivation.
That's 2 retail, 3 cultivation which I completely excluded as while not speculative per se, I don't personally feel I can address as the least knowledge.
Anyone care to break that down?
12 licenses with outcomes within 90 days.
1 retail, 2 cultivation, 1 manufacturing Q4.
2 retail, 3 cultivation (site/licenses) in the air.
That's 21 licenses/locations/facilities pending with outcome/commencement, or firm decisions held in a little over 90 days/Q4.
21 licenses/locations/operations being overlooked. (with outcomes for the most part in a single quarter lol)
:) LOLOLOL
Kinda relevant, wouldn't you say? :) lol
I've said before.....I'm quite curious (execution), and my curiosity is who (exactly) is responsible for oversight (development, coordination, launch) of those locations as that is most likely the most important person in the entire organization due to the impact of that role, and that actually might be an area they need to address.
(One of our latest we're taking over is a 65k, full site, which went from empty site/breaking ground to plants in in 4-5 months.)
I think one of their many issues are their turnaround times on locations. I'm well aware of the 100 different (valid) reasons for delays on any given project, but those should always be (when possible) addressed prior to breaking ground (when possible).
Of course, people want to compare everything to when they had an herb farm......or an herb farm and a single dispo.....or even when they had an herb farm and a couple dispo's, the majority limited medical market....
Living this exact game every day of my life, I'm sure all will be fine, and everyone will be chasing it up (again)....
Or, like some suggest, they're just going to take it all and buy a boat instead :) LOLOLOL
The former more likely than the latter...
I would have to disagree, and strays from "Trading 101", and the "Rule of 4".
You have:
1.Large gains
2.Small gains
3.Small losses
4.Large losses.
The only thing one has to accomplish in life is eliminate and avoid #4.
Most people in life have 100 worries and concerns.
For a trader/investor, they have just one thing. #4.
Your post, as well as mine, was crystal clear.
smh.....LOL......
WeHo update has stated a possible target date.
Now stating possibly 5-6 weeks."We are hoping that their review will be complete in late October"
But that was last year (?, I forgot), this year I'm on different acts tours, including DP....(Ozzy as well.....want me to make a vid of him saying something unflattering to you? ;) LOLOLOL
Official budtender badge
Viw from the parking lot..... (I added a bunch more first rows to album from different shows cause HD have 20,000 :) lol
Well that was fun...
I think we're done here ;) LOLOLOLOLOL
Here you go lil buddy.
is this one okay?
How about this one?
Name some favorites, I'll add them to show how budtenders roll :) LOL
Saw him about a dozen times on that tour, about 1,000 pics, let me know which one's you'd like :) lol
Dio auction is public, log in and grab something if you like.
And please.......try to get out more :) LOLOLOL
Give me a sec, maybe can find some pics of plane....lol (none reverse searchable as taken by me ;) LOLOL
Which is a fairly accurate summary.
I saw something else recently of someone speaking of selling at a 60% loss and then a long winded commentary on their market advice and guidance :) LOL...and thought that rather interesting......
I believe I will.
Firstly, the assumption that every single shareholder is in at the exact same entry, and the very same experiencing the exact same loss as is gleefully repeated quite often wouldn't make it past the very same (kindergartener)
Secondly, any and all who take pleasure in the misfortune of another have no place standing or speaking among men.
One of the reasons for declines being most likely people not holding a loss, and simply waiting to re enter at other levels. I think if the majority were indeed averaging down the movement and chart would look quite different.
Third, I find pointing a finger to be in extremely bad taste and poor form. There are indeed other companies (with no R/S) whose movement of the past 12+ months looks almost identical to this chart, and quite a few similar in many ways as well. I posted my position(s) on Canada entering into NY's and stated I'm out. Rode em up, cashing out, taking what I have (and was happy with) and if it leads to further unrealized gains?, so be it......this is the choice we all make, and hopefully the discipline to hold to. I believe I also stated would wait 6-9 months for them to settle back down and gauge re entry as well.
Is this a trading and positioning lecture? Maybe so, given the above, because such carries the significance of personal responsibility.(As well as skill set and discipline) But I would be more inclined to believe many exited protecting gains/against losses.
We see an endless stream of commentary of people who have experienced significant gains, yet insist that entry at low's is unwise ;) lol.....Yet such isn't presented in a reasonable,rational, logical manner. My stance has always been the same, and similar for other companies; You can never go wrong being patient, and disciplined, and waiting for your entry points to establish positions/accumulate....
This is actually a very interesting time, and it's a shame to see everyone avoiding at all costs discussing anything currently in motion. The resistance of it, while creepy, yes, is disappointing as well.
Nevada 30k underway and stated (as I have been) by new years performing full force. 15k awaiting approval to commence. SA retail and cultivation month 3 of construction. (I'd like to see them coordinate grand opening with NYE, but regardless, underway and simply have to complete to open.
While I have stated many times (and maintain position in real life day to day), WeHo is a difficult one,but on the flip side, next update is this weekend, and they're chipping away at it slowly but surely, so, at the very least a firm answer coming soon. Will they get it?, who knows, 50/50 chance due to unique and non traditional approach by the city.
NJ 4 in, with the state shooting for Nov 1st. (Don't think going to happen, and will be delayed)
Fremont location secured and in short app period currently with a quick turnaround....
I'm absolutely fascinated with what might come the next 60-90 days, and interested as would basically be equal to what they've cumulatively done in a couple years. lol
That's quite a lot of things going on right now. Odd how people on a TRTC board to talk about TRTC don't actually discuss what TRTC is doing currently LOL....
Maybe that's just the operator in me.....I want to see the execution, the turnaround, the launch, the performance, the stats/traffic, the impact on numbers, etc.......(Because while always excluded from any company analysis, I think it's applicable, wouldn't it be? ;) lol
3 ops in process, 8-9 (more) licenses in limbo (all with decisions next 60-90 days), and a Fremont?...
It confuses me I'm the only one who seems to have an interest and want to see it :) LOL (What are their pulls (harvest, weight) going to be, how often, what wholesale, yields on facility as whole, etc, etc....Fremont, given location, what stats, manufacturing, what kind of volume, licenses, which granted and where and if not who won (for me, personally, industry wise)....
Very interesting 90 day period/Q4 coming.....
$0.113 pre-RS equivalent price here.
Sad.
Puma
A low at the same levels when company had virtually nothing to speak of during a very promising point in history with numerous significant locations about to launch.
Happy.
IP
It was indeed stated on recent call (at 15:35), "We just secured a building by the Fremont Street experience" and discussion of the currently open stakeholder only licensing process , which ends a week from today, and should be a fairly simple and quick process. (As well as yet another shortly)
I'd think 4 is more likely, which again would be more than acceptable.
My personal opinion and stance has been for quite a while, and I'm glad to hear it repeated by management, NJ (as well as WeHO) will be extremely competitive processes, and winning 1 out of 6 would be impressive. (The importance of medical/RFA's to position for adult use of course....)
As a truly unbiased observer (and industry operator), and with a long standing position favoring the "organic growth", I think nice as well to see continued commitment to such approach...
There is also some very fun fine print and strategy which can be utilized in NJ, so, a win in NJ means more than anyone can imagine on the surface ;) (Be it this one, the next, or the next.......all they need is one....)
Well, that's why I did try to clarify, even 4 submitted would be impressive. (I expected and stated such weeks ago (submitting multiples and abundance of properties available).
The only limiting factor on 4/3/12 scenario would be locations, as if utilizing an (seasoned) in house team for app prep, not a biggie...
The bigger picture as well as state already anticipating 2 additional RFA's in next 6+/- months, as well as adult use still proceeding, so....Plus NJ legal issue change of venue to CA, which if it was me, (defense), I'd be looking to settle asap :) LOL
I've said since day 1, they'll be fine in/for NJ..
I finally got a chance to locate and catch up on that and found the specific passage, which was stated as "We put in 4 applications in all jurisdictions"...which could be taken either way...
We put in 4 app's in all(3) jurisdictions, or as
We put in 4 app's in all (4 in each 3) jurisdictions...
Either way......4 total is a nice effort....12 total would be even better..
(But for the layman, even 4 submitted for 4 locations in 3 zones would still be impressive, to be clear...)
One will note the thousand (or more) posts dedicated to the absolute impossibility of submitting even one ;) lol
As 3 areas, that would be impressive...(truly.....) as would represent 12 total submitted...(Even 4 submitted is though, so....)
I had addressed previously....locations in NJ weren't an issue ;)..4 submitted would further display such, 12 even more so...
I'm seeing various other comments as well (Fremont), couple hundred lights, so, again, anytime a transcript or a replay, I'd be interested...
I would have to see transcript....that would be quite surprising.
(If and when a transcript or replay is available, if someone could post. I'd be interested to hear/see that specific passage and phrasing/exact words...)
NJ was 3 areas, and 2 ATC's in each.
Interesting and expected. (4 NJ submissions).
Thanks.
Don't forget Pete....he's up in less than 60 days, and must be concerned as starting to become "receptive" on cannabis thing lol ...(and smh to anyone buying it for a second, but there are some, unfortunately....)
Will it make that much of a difference? (if any?), I think the biggest thing to come out of it (assuming he looses) will be more (political figures) becoming aware their behavior and stance on cannabis may very well cost them their seats at some point...or simply put "a message sent".
How much of a difference? I think we'll know pretty quick.
One will note the continued theme of those wishing to discuss any and every matter except the company's current activities.
The continued refusal to utter even a single word of such speaks for itself. (And will continue to)
(Which is understandable.....because why discuss current TRTC operations on a TRTC forum when one can debate Betty Crocker cake mix instead.....)
This whole avoid discussing anything current at all costs is old, and boring, and something any and all are aware of....