The INFO Challenge

[woofer]

EDIT: This is the video that has the most to do with what is pointed out in the link you provided:

EDIT 2: I read more of the stuff on his page, and I got so furious I had to stop. The guy is an outright liar. Every freakin' page of his stuff is filled with lies....and I know this from past experience reading that site.
EDIT 3: Even NIST admitted that the planes weren't the cause of the collapses.
-------------------------------------
Dave, I can't believe you used that link. This is what I have to say about that website, and so as not to repeat myself, just today I said this:
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/replies.asp?msg=23475235
...and this:
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=23475630
In your link, right off the bat he pretends that there was no fireproofing (or at least he pretends that it was mostly removed). Not only was there fireproofing, but even if there wasn't the steel would have been OK for over two hours because of the rating it had and that's with hotter fires.
I'll give you these short videos in response. The little snippets of info are my notes on each video. You can disregard them and just click on the videos:
Missing documents which are necessary to carry out an investigation.
Steel standards in strength and fire resistance
UL certified the steel- Met requirements and exceeded them
Knoblauch, Loring: CEO of Underwriters Laboratories (UL) until his resignation August of 2004. Knoblauch told UL's staff shortly after the attack that UL had certified the steel used in the WTC.
UL was in the thick of the investigation, BUT THEN claimed that they only played a limited role.
P1 Kevin Ryan discusses the NIST WTC Towers Report

-------------------------------------
Interviews were carried out much later than one would expect.
Had a hard time getting the interviews already done in NYC.
Two years later (December of 2003) finally got interviews.
No notes or recordings allowed.
internal detonations, explosions, charges, secondary devices, implosions- NONE mentioned in report
Analysis of steel- 0.3% steel
paint deformation test
NONE of the steel reached the critical half-strength value in the microstructure test (600C/1112F)
LIES- Before actual testing- "regions of impact and fire damage emphasized in selection of steel pieces"
After actual testing-"None of the samples were from zones where [high] heating was predicted."
Laboratory Tests:
Doubled the amount of hydrocarbon fuel (jet fuel) added
Used over ventilation
Used less fireproofing than was known to exist in WTC-1
Went from 3/4" fireproofing in most of south tower to down to 1/2"
They applied maximum load, doubling the amount of load that was actually on the towers' floors. THE STEEL DID NOT FAIL.
BEFORE floor testing- "[Tests will] determine the fire rating of typical WTC floor systems under both as built and specified conditions."
AFTER UL floor tests- "The Investigation Team was cautious about using these results directly in the formation of collapse hypotheses."
FINALLY had to rely on computer simulations-
Input parameters were tweaked
Realistic parameters were tossed in favor of more severe parameters
Animations GENERATED "to compare with observed events"
P2 Kevin Ryan discusses the NIST WTC Towers Report

------------------------------------
Only a small percentage of columns severed (14% in WTC-1 and 15% in WTC-2)
Live loads can be increased by 2,000%
Blamed collapse on insulation being widely dislodged
used shotgun on a flat plate, not a column which has sides to it
All the kinetic energy was used up in the initial crash
Heat of steel- The maximum that could be reached was 600F
Even if there was no fireproofed steel, the steel would not have weakened in the time that there were fires
P3 Kevin Ryan discusses the NIST WTC Towers Report

-----------------------------------
Recap
P4 Kevin Ryan discusses the NIST WTC Towers Report

[The Original dpb5!]

I did find this link of interest to the subject and thought you might, too...

http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm

[woofer]

Dave, thanks so much, once again, and this time I know what your answer is, and I will have to agree with you. It would appear that neither of us can find a building like the one I'm searching for. And thanks also for the video you just posted, although I think it's been posted a number of times before on my board.

[The Original dpb5!]

I'm sorry Woofer...

I guess I should have clarified to you that the answer to your question was NO, instead of just posting that article.

Here is an EXCELLENT video that you might want to post on your website regarding your question...

Steel Buildings Don't Collapse from Fire!....

[woofer]

Thank you very much, Dave, but maybe you misunderstood my question. I would like to know if there have been other high rise steel structured buildings that have ever collapsed due to fire. I appreciate your attempt to answer my question though.

The Windsor Tower's fire went on all night, and it remained standing in the morning. If you watch this short video, I suggest turning down the volume.

These buildings remained standing too:
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=20966549

In fact, the Deutche Bank Building was damaged more than WTC-7 and was set for demolition, but this year it had a fire and didn't collapse. The fires lasted the same amount of time, and were on about the same amount of floors. There were fires lower down which can't be seen in the video.

[The Original dpb5!]

Hi Woofer...

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/analysis/compare/NYTimes_reportechoes.htm

April 2, 2002
New York Times
U.S. Report on Trade Center Echoes Lessons of Past Disasters
By ERIC LIPTON and JAMES GLANZ
A New York City skyscraper burns out of control, fireproofing is absent or fails, structural steel warps and snaps, floors begin to collapse, workers in the building die.

The date is Aug. 5, 1970. The skyscraper is called 1 New York Plaza, less than a mile from where the World Trade Center towers were rising into the clouds.

The fire and collapse of the World Trade Center last Sept. 11 in many ways stand alone, both in the terrifying attack and in the incomprehensible death toll. The first federal assessment of the trade center disaster, which The New York Times obtained last week, has made clear that there may have been no reasonable precautions that could have stopped the towers from collapsing once they were struck and huge fires broke out.

But in the same report, parallels between the demise of the twin towers and deadly fires in other high-rises in the United States since 1970 are disturbingly apparent and at times, explicitly drawn.

After the 1 New York Plaza fire, federal investigators cited flaws in light fireproofing sprayed onto steel structural supports that had fallen off or flaked away, leaving beams vulnerable to failure and collapse in the superintense heat. After a fire at the First Interstate Bank in Los Angeles in 1988, the same federal agency warned that radios did not work properly in steel-frame skyscrapers.

And a huge high-rise fire in Philadelphia in 1991 led federal experts to conclude that tests for assessing structural integrity in fires, dating back to the early 20th century, were technically primitive and unreliable for the high-temperature blazes in offices filled with plastic computers and synthetic furniture.

The assessment of the trade center collapse, by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the American Society of Civil Engineers, does not draw conclusions about whether even the best-designed fire suppression system could have saved the buildings. The report also credits the structural design of the towers for surviving the initial impact. But it cites the same hazards identified by federal authorities in the earlier fires as contributing to the death and destruction on Sept. 11.

"Spray-applied fireproofing may be vulnerable to damage from blasts and impacts," says a draft of the FEMA report, adding that failure of support structures protected with this fireproofing "is likely critical to the ultimate building failure."

A New York City inquiry has already revealed that emergency personnel in the trade center on Sept. 11 were at times unable to communicate because of radio problems, and the FEMA report says that the nation's standard fire test "does not reflect the behavior of floor and roof constructions that are exposed to uncontrolled fire in real buildings."

These echoes show that while the trade center demise was like no other disaster, the reports on the earlier fires warned that the same dangers could cost many lives.

"It fits, obviously, on the extreme end of the spectrum, because this is the worst building disaster we've had, ever," said Donald Bliss, vice president of the National Association of State Fire Marshals. But he added, "Are there indeed the proper fire protection systems and capabilities in place to react to a catastrophic fire, irregardless of the cause?"

It's a question that firefighters, in New York City at least, had been asking long before Sept. 11, and they see in that disaster a horrible validation of their long apprehensions about the dangers of fighting major fires and performing evacuations in modern, lightweight high-rises.

"With the old buildings, you know the building's going to hold," said Neil P. Winberry, a retired New York fire captain. "You've got time to work." After the city fire code was changed in 1968, allowing a widespread shift from masonry fireproofing to a light, spray-on product, Mr. Winberry said, "we could not understand how this was going to work; we had no faith in it."

Over the past century, calls for reform in the byzantine world of fire protection and building standards have far exceeded substantive changes. Yet there are already signs that the calls for change may be heard this time.

In New York City, a post-Sept. 11 task force began meeting last month to examine the adequacy of city codes and regulations on fire protection, structural integrity of buildings and emergency exits.

David A. Lucht, director of the Center for Fire Safety Studies at Worcester Polytechnic Institute, said economic pressures along with the effectiveness of sprinkler systems for smaller fires had actually led to a weakening of standards for fireproofing that is applied as insulation to structural steel.

"The trend towards cutting back" on such fireproofing has been there for several decades, Professor Lucht said, describing the combination of steel insulation and sprinklers as "belt and suspenders."

High-rise disasters are rare. But the particular vulnerabilities identified at the trade center and in other high-rise fires might force modifications that could greatly reduce catastrophes, perhaps even in terrorist attacks. Conclusions drawn from extensive data gathered from damaged or destroyed buildings around the twin towers — structures that caught fire but were not hit by an airplane — are reinforcing the case for changes.

"It may be decided that we need to go back and heavy up the belt and heavy up the suspenders," Professor Lucht said.

The most frightful confirmation of that view might be seen from inside a burning tower. Shortly before 6 p.m. on Aug. 5, 1970, an elevator carrying two security guards and a telephone technician opened unexpectedly on the 33rd floor of 1 New York Plaza, a 50-story skyscraper so new that some tenants were still moving in. The elevator had been called to the floor by one of the old-style buttons that lighted up from the touch of a warm finger. Flames and smoke rushed into the elevator and forced the men to the floor.

Two died before rescuers could arrive. The fire rushed up ventilation shafts from the 33rd floor, where it melted the metallic bases of typists' chairs, reaching the 35th floor. Light, spray-on fireproofing, which at some point had been knocked away, left steel supports for the floors exposed to the blaze. They twisted and pulled away from their connections, initiating collapses that stopped only because the concrete slabs of the floors refused to give way.

Although the building stood, the fire burned for more than six hours. The heat-activated elevator call buttons were phased out after the investigative report cited their dangers, but not all of its warnings were heeded. "The protection of steel members in a really fire-resistive building must be accomplished by materials that cannot be readily removed or damaged," the report said in a harbinger of language that has reappeared in the trade center draft, even though the formula for the twin towers spray-on fireproofing was somewhat different.

"It is apparent that sprayed fiber may not be universally applied to the proper thickness, that proper adhesion to steel may not take place and that the protection may be removed in many locations," the report on the 1970 fire said.

A 1988 high-rise fire in Los Angeles sounded another prescient alarm. Flames from the blaze at the 62-story First Interstate Bank building, then the tallest tower west of the Sears Tower in Chicago, lapped up the side of the building, gutting offices from the 12th to the 16th floor.

By all accounts, the response was fast and well organized, as firefighters quickly eliminated a water-supply problem by linking mobile pumpers into the building's system. But radios did not transmit clear signals because of the skyscraper's steel frame. And with so many firefighters responding, the radio system was overwhelmed.

At the height of the blaze, a firefighter had to smash open a 10th-floor window to communicate with a commander at the street level. The fire burned for three and a half hours, killing a maintenance worker and injuring 35 others.

Engineers later discovered that the building survived the fire with surprisingly limited structural damage; credit was given to especially thick layers of a relatively heavy, cementlike fireproofing that had been applied to structural steel. The World Trade Center had the much lighter, easily dislodged fireproofing on the floor braces whose failure probably initiated the collapse.

And despite the warning on radios in high-rises, the problems still were not completely solved, at least in New York: radio transmissions were spotty in the twin towers, and an order to evacuate the towers before they collapsed was not received by many firefighters.

No modern fire strikes as strong a resonance with the trade center as the 19-hour, eight-floor fire at 1 Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. Three firefighters died, few compared with the 343 firefighters who died at the World Trade Center. But just as on Sept. 11, multiple fire protection systems failed, were overwhelmed or were simply knocked out of service.

"Perhaps the most striking lesson to be learned from the 1 Meridian Plaza high-rise fire is what can happen when everything goes wrong," said the FEMA report on the fire.

The water supply was inadequate; although the building remained standing, huge floor beams heated and sagged as much as 36 inches, despite their fireproofing; sprinklers and smoke detectors were sporadic at best; electrical power was lost and the building was plunged into darkness.

[woofer]

The Original dpb5, I love the idea of your board and I hope you can help me with this question. Although I consider myself a terrific researcher, I'm stuck. Are there any other steel structured high rises anywhere in the world that have collapsed due to fire other than WTC-1, WTC-2, and WTC-7? I have tried every search word I can think of and put it into Google, but I haven't been able to find a building.

[gotmilk]

The continuation of Churak in the afterlife...

... is this an accurate image, or a marshmallow, or a ?

[midas98]

General Chuck Yeager

[gotmilk]

The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down.

General _____ ______, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262.


The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Ger. "swallow") was the first operational jet powered fighter. It was mass-produced in World War II and saw action from late 1944 in bomber/reconnaissance and fighter/interceptor roles. German pilots nicknamed it the Turbo, while to the Allies it was the Stormbird. Although the Me 262 had a negligible impact on the course of the war--shooting down an estimated 150 Allied aircraft for the loss of 100 Me 262s, the majority of aircraft grounded for lack of fuel--the jet was both well-known and highly influential on post-war aircraft development. When going into a dive to capture and eat an airborne insect, the swallow is one of the fastest birds known, hence its use in naming the Me-262.

[The Original dpb5!]

ANSWER:

WOOT.COM

[gotmilk]

The software deal of the day

_oo_.com sells one product a day, online only, starting at midnight.
The products are mostly out-of-production or overstock goods.
The site's sucess has spawned several imitators.

[The Original dpb5!]

Nice post Doug...

And a good point!

[gotmilk]

Many a times "further research" has lead me to places of wonder and knowledge
needing me to live a thousand more years to travel into.

Then for sure the pathways traveled would not end, but once again branch into more.

The original Star Trek's had character Q I enjoyed very much, but to imagine a being
to know everything possibe I never believed, as for sure only God has that claim.

doug

[The Original dpb5!]

Some further research has lead me to the following post on IHUB.
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=10844671

It definitely intrigues me.

I had not heard of Nanologic (NNLX) before.

What is of greatest interest to me is that Welch Foods that is referred to in the PR is in the small city called North East, PA.

That is only 11 miles 'northeast' of my hometown of Erie, PA.

It is called North East, PA., because it is the MOST North Eastern City in the state of Pennsylvania.

North East PA. is grape, and therefore WINE Country in Pennsylvania. It is also known for production of cherries, and it's annual festival is called the "CHERRY FESTIVAL".

[gotmilk]

I'm confused...'The INFO Challenge'

Welcome to The INFO Challenge Board.
... [The Original dpb5! has] found a solution...
To see how this works, go ahead...
Ask me a research question.
RULES...
1. The questions must be about legitimate verifiable facts.
2...

Hi O,

Please outline your "solution" steps taken for my question.

I'm sure I asked a research type question correctly.

re:
Message In Reply To:
There is a LOT of discussion on IHUB about aquifers and mining,
but no company that I could locate that specifically sells paleowater.

Yes, that is correct for:
Question: Do any IH boards talk [about] fossil/paleowater.

But, the answer format to my second research question is as follows:

1. no IHUB company board mines and sells paleowater.
2. one (or more) as follows:...

Your answer of: I could [not] locate...

Says your "solution" failed you, in that it could not determine a result.

As for my approach here, its because you say you found a method,
but did not detail what it is, but want to demostrate that it works.

Now, do you want to continue this, or ignore me as Phil does?

doug

[The Original dpb5!]

There is a LOT of discussion on IHUB about aquifers and mining, but no company that I could locate that specifically sells paleowater.

[gotmilk]

Question on your answer... Do any IH boards represent either a talk on
paleowater, or a company selling such water?

[The Original dpb5!]

ANSWER!...

FOSSIL water or PALEO water is groundwater that has remained in an aquifer
for thousands or more years.

The OGALLALA (United States) and NUBIAN (Libya) aquifers are those most notable.

Extraction of FOSSIL water is sometimes referred to as mining due to the fact
that it is a non-renewable resource.

[gotmilk]

______ water or _____water is groundwater that has remained in an aquifer
for thousands or more years.

The ________ (United States) and ______ (Libya) aquifers are those most notable.

Extraction of ______ water is sometimes referred to as mining due to the fact
that it is a non-renewable resource.

[The Original dpb5!]

Sorry for the delay!

Have been very busy at work!

The "term" is VASELINE!

[gotmilk]

The term ________ was coined as a combination of...

the German word for water [Wasser]
and,
the Greek word for oil [elaion]

?

[gotmilk]

Message In Reply To:... Ask away!

The INFO Challenge
Moderator: The Original dpb5! ... [has] found a solution [to frustrations]
using search engines [to] find a relevant answer [to] a research question...
To see how this works, go ahead... Ask me a research question... Ask away!

Gosh Golly Grief, de "found a solution" NOT

iHub Talk | Other | The INFO Challenge
Posted by: gotmilk
Date: Friday, 14 April 2006
pop quiz(s)
#msg-10677596 grapefruit
#msg-10679121 perception & orgasm

Maybe The Original dpb5? needs questions he only has already answers to.

:o)

[gotmilk]

pop quiz #msg-10677596 grapefruit #msg-10679121 perception & orgasm

[The Original dpb5!]

Time is of the essence!

I have already received $555 in pledges to BAIL me out of JAIL tomorrow afternoon!

$465 so far has been pledged online by the good people who use IHUB! I NEED MORE SUPPORT!

I have sent Thank You notes to those who pledged to help Jerry's Kids in your memory!

Hopefully others will join in soon and help me to raise my goal this year of $1,200 to send 2 of Jerry's Kids to Summer Camp!

I will be carted away to Jr's Comedy Club tomorrow, placed in prison garb, forced to be pictured handcuffed behind bars, and made to sit and rot in "JAIL" until I raise this year's "BAIL" goal of $1200 via telephone calls to friends and family !!! $1200 will allow 2 children with Muscular Dystrophy to attend Summer Camp !! IMAGINE the JOY this will bring to them!

I am pleading for people to "HAVE A HEART" and help me raise my goal.

Click on the following link, then click on "LOOK WHO HAS DONATED!"

http://url.fm/30b

Then click on the link that will allow you to donate online, and help a couple of "Jerry's Kid's".

This link will be open for the next 2 weeks to give people with a 'GOOD HEART' time to participate!

NO pledge is too small. $1, $2, $5, $10, $20 or MORE.....it all adds up!!

Thanks go out once again to those who have helped in this year's "LOCK UP Event".

Dave

[The Original dpb5!]

Ok, now that we have gotten past the most pressing questions, it is time to free up the board to ask some really relevant questions now. LOL!

Ask away!

[The Original dpb5!]

Most ignored poster on IHUB is ...

GOTMILK

[The Original dpb5!]

Most intlelligent poster on IHUB is..

ZEEV

[midas98]

Aha!!!!! Maybe.

[lady*b]

Maybe you are on ignore? LOL!

[midas98]

Don't ask me.... I came here for info to my question. Still haven't received an answer. LOL.

[lady*b]

LOL. I was asking....?

[midas98]

I give.... Which one?

[lady*b]

Which poster on IHUB is officially ignored the most by other members?

[midas98]

Who is the most intelligent poster on IHUB?

[cosmoworld7]

He should try out for the NBA. eom

[The Original dpb5!]

Russia's most popular athlete is...

http://english.pravda.ru/society/showbiz/30-03-2006/78101-athletes-0

[gotmilk]

tallest man in the world is Robert Wadlow

Russia's most popular athlete is?

[SkeBallLarry]

BoardMarked, DP .... !!

[The Original dpb5!]

The tallest man in the world is....

http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/29-04-2004/5450-giant-0

[The Original dpb5!]

Hello everybody...

To get this board started and to show you how it works, I will myself ask the first question.

Who is the tallest man in the world?