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Another thing said during the conference call
The speaker (Not sure if it was the Semtech CEO or someone else) said that they will "share" the Linear ACC Market with their biggest competitor, Macom.
And yet neither Macom nor Semtech did any presentations with Volex, like Spectra7 did.
Neither Macom nor Semtech joined the Ethernet Alliance and went to OFC with them, Like Spectra7 did.
Neither Macom nor Semtech did any presentations with ACES, like Spectra7 did.
I think one of two things is going on here:
Either
A) Both Semtech and Macom are actually using Spectra7 IP, explaining why they don't feel the need to go to OFC with the Ethernet Alliance, or to DesignCon with Volex and ACES
or
B) All the big players, Volex, ACES, Ethernet Alliance promoters (Cisco, Broadcom, etc) think that Spectra7 IP is superior, explaining why they are working with Spetcra7 and not with Macom and Semtech.
It's very possible that Spectra7 has an agreement with both Macom and Semtech, whereby these to larger players make the market while Spectra7 displays the tech and collects the royalties on future sales.
We shall see...
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Semtech Conference Call/Very Informative on ACC's
I just listened to this call. Almost ALL of the questions were around their Linear Equalizer chips for Active Copper Data Center solutions.
The responses were very informative regarding where ACC's are.
1) Nvida GPU to GPU interconnects are possible up to one meter without ACC's, for now, but passive copper is "quickly running out of steam."
2) Anything over one meter will require an active solution.
3) Linear ACC's are a great intermediary between passive and AEC's, with ACC's using just 20% of the power of AEC's
4) No need for AEC's up to five meters.
5) Linear ACC's will push to 1.6T speeds...possibly even reaching five meters at that speed as well with newer designs.
6) 1.6T ACC will begin in calendar year 2025
7) 800G ACC will begin to ramp soon, second half of 2024, with some of it even beginning before the half.
Observations:
Huge interest in Linear ACC's
Nvidia is very much all in with Linear ACC's
Linear ACC's will also be used to interconnect various AI clusters, so it's not just server to server and rack to rack connections, but cluster to cluster as well.
https://www.webcast-eqs.com/Semtechcorp20240328/en
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Just thinking, if that's the case then this is one cheap stock.
Sustainability is also a hot topic for the Ethernet industry, and the Ethernet Alliance highlighted it in its 2014 roadmap. If you look at data center equipment and the network, the proportion of the energy bill being used by the network has been increasing, Jones said. “You get to the stage where you can’t fault the rack because you’ve already consumed all of your power and all of your cooling,” Jones said. “The big issue for Ethernet is going to be how do we increase the service and reduce the power? Ultimately focusing on efficiency and effectiveness is going give us better product.”
Macom has their own patent for cable equalization.
I don’t know if it infringes Spectra7 patents.
https://patents.justia.com/inventor/naga-rajesh-doppalapudi
Those are the same companies that just brought Spectra7 to OFC.
Nice find.
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2nd half confirmed here and fits the S7 commercial launch timeline too for 800
https://www.networkworld.com/article/2075478/industry-groups-drive-ethernet-upgrades-for-ai-hpc.html
And here's how it began, 5 years ago:
Nvidia grabs Mellanox out from under Intel’s nose
“Nvidia is trying to shore up its position in the data center because that’s where it’s still growing. It helps build out its strategy from a single box solution to a multi-box solution. So it doesn’t have just the stuff in the box; it has the stuff to connect the boxes,” he said.
Mellanox was Nvidia's way of getting into the Networking biusiness. Mellanox uses Volex ACC's. Volex ACC's use Spectra7 chips. Nvidia said they will only use Linear ACC's, not retimers.
Any questions?
https://www.networkworld.com/article/967113/nvidia-grabs-mellanox-out-from-under-intels-nose.html
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Here's relevant news, from 5 minutes ago:
The below is where Linear Active Copper Cables come into play, and, when you read "Mellanox" know that they mean the Volex ACC's made with Spectra7 chips.
Nvidia GTC 2024 wrap-up: Blackwell not the only big news
High-speed networking platforms
Nvidia is as much of a networking company as it is a GPU company, although it doesn’t focus on the networking side as much. But Nvidia took the ball with Mellanox and ran with it. The company announced two new high-speed network platforms with throughput speeds of up to 800 GB/s, geared for AI systems.
The first platform is the Quantum-X800 InfiniBand, which consists of two components: the Quantum 3400 switch and ConnectX-8 SuperNIC. It provides five times the bandwidth capacity and nine times the in-network computing compared to the previous generation, which comes out to 14.4 teraflops of throughput.
The second platform is the Spectrum-X800 Ethernet, which utilizes the Spectrum SN5600 800Gbps switch and the Nvidia BlueField-3 SuperNIC. It is designed for multi-tenant generative AI clouds and large enterprises.
Cloud services providers are lining up for both Quantum InfiniBand and Spectrum-X Ethernet, including Microsoft Azure, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, and Coreweave.
https://www.networkworld.com/article/2075562/nvidia-gtc-2024-wrap-up-blackwell-not-the-only-big-news.html
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So Astera makes AEC chips. So what?
So does Credo. So do other companies.
That was a very long video to watch to tell us Astera has been selling things to Nvidia and now they make AEC's.
Nvidia SAID they will NOT use Retimers. AEC's use Retimers.
So what's the relevance here? All I saw was another AEC maker...
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Robert, would have been nice if you provided context as to posting this. These guys seem to have the ability to juice this story up. Already on CNBC. Seems like they can even get people to post their story for them on other chat forums.
Macom and Semtech are not even part of the Ethernet Alliance.
The Ethernet Alliance just presented with Spectra7 at OFC, and did a PlugFest a few months ago with Spectra7.
Yet Macom and Semtech are not involved with the Ethernet Alliance in any way... Now why would you not be included in the world's biggest alliance for the world's most-used networking platform?
Unless what they're selling is already being represented there by the company that holds the IP...
It's one of two things: Either Spectra7's Linear ACC's are considered superior by the Ethernet Alliance, or the other two companies are already using it.
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"It wouldn't be the first time that companies offered "White Box" solutions re-branded to their own logos".
This makes zero sense. If there was ANY sort of connection with Spectra and Macom that would be a material event that they would have to announce. But I'll give you the patent infringement possibility.
While we eagerly await Steve's reply, here's just one reason why I believe there could be a connection:
At DesignCon 2024, Spectra7 worked with ACES, Volex, Keysight and Multilane.
This does not appear to be the case for Semtech and Macom. While Macom was there, they seemed to be going it along.
Now why would you not work with Keysight and Multilane to test your wares? Unless, of course, they've already been tested many times, via the true source of the IP...
It wouldn't be the first time that companies offered "White Box" solutions re-branded to their own logos.
At the very least, as Halim has said, there will be patent infringements if they do make money with the tech, and patent settlements almost always end up with the violating company paying the IP-owning company a royalty on every sale going forward.
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What are those reasons?
It's a little bit different when you're talking about tens-of-millions of dollars' savings per year per data center, and the entire world is watching as the energy crisis surrounding the power needs of those data centers shows center stage every day in the news, where water supplies and nuclear options come into the fray.
So, no...it's not like Beta vs VHS.
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Here they all are:
Spectra7
https://www.spectra7.com/gc1122-2
Macom
https://www.macom.com/products/product-detail/MAEQ-39904
Semtech
https://www.semtech.com/products/signal-integrity/signal-conditioners/gn8112
Here is what Halim said in late 2021! Now we are in 2024, is this time different???? Has AI changed things??
"We are seeing tremendous interest from every Hyperscaler to get sample 800Gbps cables that are enabled by our new GC1122 solution", said Spectra7 CEO Raouf Halim. "Both we and our cable partners believe that 800Gbps will represent a significant acceleration in the growth and adoption of our ACC data center interconnect technology."
I think what is obvious is this: the equalizers have been around and ready for years. It’s the rest of the network - switches etc. - that have had to catch up.
Macon released its MAEQ39904 in late 2021. S7 released its GC1122 in late 2020..
The cable docs for NVIDIA were first drafts in late 2022. So it could be either.
Yeah it’s either Macom or S7 or both. The only thing that I noticed was that S7 latency was only around 1ns. So they added a lot of padding to the spec if it’s S7.
I have reasons to believe that’s not the case.
Macom could be S7 inside though, right?
Last PP no problem getting shares. I was told this time probably none available and if there was I'd be notified. Haven't heard a word.
Macom has the same specs.
https://www.macom.com/products/product-detail/MAEQ-39904
About the PP, I wish we were given a believable update. I would not be surprised if the SPVNF got an equity investment from a player in hyperscale market?
deeceewee👍️
Thanks for taking the time and effort to do your research and share what you found.
As an investor in SPVNF I found it educational, and comforting without be pushy.
PART 4 (LAST PART):
So in the Nvidia specs for a straight run cable we have:
https://docs.nvidia.com/mca4j80-nxxx-800gb-s-twin-port-osfp-to-2x400gb-s-osfp-infiniband-acc-product-specifications-01-09-2024.pdf
- 1.5 Watts MAX power usage per end.
- 4.5ns MAX latency (note this is max not average)
- 3.3V power supply
These line up with S7 specs. AEC and AOC can't even come close to these specs, so it's 100% analog here folks. Question is, the 1,000,000 question is - is it Spectra7?
PART 3:
Now scroll down the parts list page and you'll see near the bottom the ACC lineup. Here they are:
https://docs.nvidia.com/networking/display/mca4j80nxxx800pub
https://docs.nvidia.com/networking/display/mca7j60nxxx800pub
https://docs.nvidia.com/networking/display/mca7j70nxxx800pub
https://docs.nvidia.com/networking/display/mca7j65nxxx800pub
https://docs.nvidia.com/networking/display/mca7j75nxxx800pub
From one of the descriptions:
NVIDIA® MCA4J80 is a 800Gb/s twin-port OSFP (Octal Small Formfactor Pluggable)-to-2x400Gb/s twin-port OSFP Active Copper Cable (ACC) for InfiniBand NDR networking.
ACC cables are the second lowest-cost, lowest-latency, very low-power consuming, high-speed links available due to their simplicity of design and minimal components. The “active” term refers to the passive copper cable with an equalizer integrated circuit to extend the length to 3, 4, and 5 meters while maintaining very low-latency and very low-power at 1.5 Watts per end. Thin 30AWG is used for 4m lengths and thicker 26AWG for 5m. Each end includes an EEPROM which provides product identification and characteristics to the host system. For lengths less than 3 meters, use passive DAC cables.
An ACC is a passive DAC with a pre-emphasis equalizer IC included in each end, enabling cable lengths of up to 5 meters while maintaining very low-latency and very low-power at 1.5 Watts a per end. Every cable length is tuned to reduce signal noise and back reflections. The ACC firmware supports both InfiniBand and Ethernet and is automatically enabled depending on the protocol of the switch attached to.
NVIDIA’s cable solutions provide power-efficient connectivity enabling higher port bandwidth, density and configurability at a low cost and reduced power requirement in the data centers. Rigorous cable production testing ensures best out-of-the-box installation experience, performance, and durability.
Key Features
2x400Gb/s data rate
Based on 8-channels of 100G-PAM4 modulation
5m max length
1.5 Watts max per end
Operating case temperature 0°C to +70°C
Single 3.3V supply voltage
Hot pluggable
RoHS compliant
LSZH (Low Smoke Zero Halogen) jacket
LF (Lead Free) HF (Halogen Free) PCB
SFPmsa.org based
SFF-8636 based I2C management interface
The voltage required and the wattage line up with S7 chips.
PART 2:
Now, let's follow the link and click on "Parts List" here it is:
https://docs.nvidia.com/networking/display/400g100gpam4listpub
"The 100G-PAM4 cable and transceiver product line consists of DAC, ACC and AOC cables, multimode and single-mode optics."
Don't see AEC or AOC in that quote above...
Now look at the diagram - we have "ACC" at 1-2m straight 800G to 800G and then we have up to 4,5 m splitters. Guaranteed this graphic was done before they tried to change to LACC hahahaha.
Would be great if SEV could get this exposure.
PART 1:
OK, going to do a data sheet delve. First thing you ned to know is that S7 is the ONLY equalizer company (ACC) that is in FULL production at the moment. Yes there are plenty of AOC and AEC.
Let's dive in...
First we need this link to Nvidia Cabling : https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/networking/interconnect/
From the site:
400Gb/s OSFP (100G-PAM4 Modulation) InfiniBand and Ethernet
800 gigabits per second (Gb/s) and 400Gb/s cables and transceivers are used for linking Quantum-2 InfiniBand and Spectrum-4 SN5600 Ethernet switches together and with ConnectX-7 network adapters, BlueField-3 DPUs, and NVIDIA DGX™ H100 GPU systems. The product line consists of direct-attach cables (DAC) reaching up to 3 meters (m), linear active copper cables from 3m to 5m, multimode optics to 50m, and single-mode optics to 100m, 500m, and 2 kilometers (km)
Only PAM4 100G mentions LACCs. Let's follow the links...
The companies history has created the current disbelief
“Linear Active Copper Cables” appear at 100G PAM4 at 3-5 meters.
Which is what everyone wants, no?
Question is is that S7???
Future says yes. Others say no.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/networking/interconnect/
I think we’ve got a VHS vs BETA MAX situation going on here. Beta was the better tech but just didn’t have the industry behind it even though VHS was inferior. Hopefully our little BETA doesn’t repeat history.
I guess no students of history here...
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Wow, what a bunch of BullPuki The more I read that article, the more I want to puke with disgust at the blatant attempt to make it seem as if Astera Labs' "Retimers" are going to be used in Nvidia's newest systems.
Jensen Huang SPECIFICALLY stated that they will NOT be using Retimers, yet this guy writing this STUPID article keeps trying to make is seem as if Retimers are going to be used. He's obviously bought into the Astera IPO and now wants to make a buck.
Pathetic.
Nvidia said that they are using Linear Active Copper.
Their website shows they are using Linear Active Copper.
They are using Linear Active Copper.
....
The goal is taking the company private, hence they have vested interest in keeping the SP as low as they are able to. It should be clear after all these years of suffering…
That Astera Labs article sounds like it was written by someone who has a vested interest in that company. It claims that retimers will be used in Nvidia's newest system, even after Jensen Huang said the opposite.
Nvidia's own website says LACC's as well. No retimers... Linear ACC's:
LinkX Cables and Transceivers
The NVIDIA Quantum-X800 platform connectivity options with the NVIDIA LinkX® interconnect portfolio provide the maximum flexibility for building a preferred network topology, using connectorized transceivers with passive fiber cables and linear active copper cables (LACCs).
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/networking/products/infiniband/quantum-x800/
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it's been almost a month to price and close a "modest" PP, something is up, either really good or really bad, maybe he is courting a MACOM partnership, or maybe not and maybe nobody wants to invest, it's hard to know the answer, it just seem hard to believe based on one year ago they filled 6 million at 1.00CAD PP in 5 days and it was oversubscribed
They said they expect the PP to close in March... Aye, March has come, Caesar... But not yet gone 😉
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I wonder what’s up with the financing. RH made it sound like it was all queued up with insiders and institutions ready to go.
I’m sure he stated in one of their video presentations that getting financing wouldn’t be a problem too. I hope their not going to release a sh!t quarter and then finance.
"Though the company isn't speaking of any other design wins yet, we imagine that Nvidia's next-gen HGX Blackwell systems will also utilize Astera's silicon."
They can keep on imagining... Jensen Huang said no retimers will be used in Blackwell...
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Happy Easter Reading. Have a nice weekend
https://650group.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/650-Group-ACC-White-Paper-July-2023.pdf?x32776
Due to either gross incompetence or unplaced optimism on their part, no one believes anything that comes from the executive team. These fluff PR's are nothing burgers to the market.
It's almost like S7 is being treated like the boy who cried wolf.
The wolf (AI ) is here but nobody cares.
Lack of credibility is holding it back. It won’t change until results are shown.
Side note, for two days there were some moving bids but no one selling where
few days ago seller was dumping like crazy
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