Market Makers

[BBseller]

the otcshortreport is a total joke. SHO stocks are legit but the % needed to be on sho is so small I wouldn't count on a short squeeze

[traderwebb]

How about the threshold thing....

What does it mean, this link here that I'm pasting....

http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=82892898

Who is in for an awaken based on the post? Are they saying the stock is going to bottom out because of this threshold?

Any answers would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[traderwebb]

Yes, this board has been enjoying many holidays it appears. I came here hoping to get some answers. Wanted to ask about something current, not really a long lesson in mm's, my brain has not much room to learn a lot more stuff about that....

Merry New Year to all, and all that won't read this....

[Sir Francelote]

It seems this board is in holiday mode...

[BBseller]

people run the L3 machines

[PennyBears]

Anything

[PennyBears]

Are the MMs computer controlled or are there people controlling the action?

[BBseller]

Here's some DD on shorting.Follow all links and posts.
As the first post states,please google and do some DD,your eyes will be opened.
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=71383864
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=64136298
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=68615971
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=57118053

[BBseller]

wamex went completely under, yes? Same company? http://www.rgm.com/articles/wamex.html


Ed Durante, brings back memories. I think he used to be a mmer

[BBseller]

Sure thing! What you wanna know?

[PennyBears]

Lets talk MMs!

[BBseller]

I would like to get this thread back up and answer many of the questions I know people have about mmers. I was one and am familiar with shorting as a mmer, 211s and all things related to such.

[BBseller]

Heaps of experience with halted stocks fyi. Very familiar with the Greys and the 15c process too.

[BBseller]

not true anymore as you probably know. There was a rule that came into effect april 1st 2004 "NASD is delaying the effective date of amendments to Rule 3370 (Prompt Receipt and Delivery of Securities—the "Affirmative Determination" Rule) approved by the SEC in November 2003, until April 1, 2004. The amendments expand the ...


http://www.finra.org/Industry/Regulation/Notices/2004/p003291

[BBseller]

what do you want to know?

[slorke]

Any experience? SEC Suspensions? 15c2-11?

[harleygurl13]

test

[Georgia Bard]

CBQ 10 Red Flags of MMM: Now first let me give a few principals as the underlying basis for a few market principles within this post as a prelude to what you’re asking. Especially since some are wanting my opinion or view. The following is almost a daily event in CBQI since December 8, 1999. Oh and just for what it is worth, MMs typically do not carry inventories in OTCs. However, the following is the 10 Red Flags for MMM (Market Maker Manipulation):

1. Cross-Trading is the control by one or only a few brokers who match purchases and sales to drive up or down the stock price with every way benefits which is the hallmark of penny stock manipulation … There was a 1200 cross Friday at 11:23 which I was tied up and did not commentary on http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9583 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9601
2. Boxing where a broker will position himself on both the ask and the bid, which is the heart of penny stock manipulation http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9567 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9602 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9603
3. Stock Call Signals of small share blocks of stock typically 100, 200 and 300 to get a supply of stock another MM or broker to help. http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9594 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9610 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9611
4. Locking is where the MM on the ask moves to the bid in an attempt to back the bidding MM off to drive the price of the stock down .. Last time it Locked was on 1-03-2000 here is the log … 9:40:56AM 0.750-0:781 25x25 / 9:59:36AM 0.719-0.830 25x25 / 9:58:11AM 1000 0.75 Bid Buy / 9:58:35AM 2500 0.75 Ask Sell / 9:58:12AM 1500 0.75 Bid Sell / 9:58:16AM 500 0.75 Bid Buy / 9:58:16AM 1500 0.75 Bid Buy / 9:58:17AM 0.750-0.750 25x25 / 9:58:25AM 0.719-0.750 25x25 / 9:58:24 2500 0.75 Bid Buy. http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9263
5. Nothing Done / No Fills is applied to your order and market makers trade ahead of you or is flat out where you can’t get a fill no matter what you do or complaint you make but will eventually http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=8127 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=8169 Hurri’s post on the time of not getting delivery of stock http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9692
6. Buy orders at the Ask Filled on the bid: http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9817
7. Excessive spreads between bid and ask prices; http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9263
8. Oversell grows daily which is where the market makers sell more stock they have bought. 10-06-2000 T&S Report 31% Oversell according to best effort http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9681 10-05-2000 T&S Report 70% Oversell according to Best Effort http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9531
9. The Churn is market makers trading where most of the volume (59% according to Forbes) is among themselves Take a look at around 11:00 on 10-04-2000 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9353 or 09-26-2000 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=8138
10. FUDs deliberate false and misleading rumor-mongering to deflate the stock price (Could these be Market Maker voices) http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9223 However a little history on Jetfuel http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9257 & part 2 http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9260 However Stock_Whiz http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9255 but according to Stock Whiz I am doing more harm than good. ??? to who exposing MMM by my commentary of the trading. Exposing what I feel is a wrong doing with an underlying basis to what I post. Next is an old Professional basher that always seems to show up when HRZG is on the bid comes out of retirement to make 7 posts then leaves and hasn’t posted since … hmmm… http://www.ragingbull.altavista.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=9179 I will not go into Magnoman and chartman that evaded the thread when MASH was on the bid.

These tactics, I have watched in CBQ since December 1999 and have documented each. Most of this was documented under Georigia_Bard from April to I believe July that has gotten deleted. The Market Maker reports were stopped in April. I believe the reason was because the MMs were actually reporting what they were doing. The OTC is unregulated and thus they do not have to fill an order or report a short position.

Note: Someone once asked me about shorting an OTC. Well, we all know it is suppose to be illegal but in a phone conversation with a shorter, I was informed Bruno with Farsight was who he used. The gentleman would Front Load then Pump(Stretch the facts positive) Dump into the hype volume then Short once the momentum backed off and if necessary Bash on being lied to by the company. This is why I wrote the P&D vs S&D. Of course I am probably the focus of a character assassination. (What else is new?) BTW I had an account with Farsight and I did not know you could short an OTC through them.

Oh and to complain about it to NASD when you flat see this going on you get the following even when you are using the MM Report the OTC BB use to put out. I made a similiar post to this one on April 6, 2000 and it is deleted so I will post this message on several boards. Anyway Listless tried to do what we are suppose to do and complain to NASD. Here is what happened…

April 1, 2000 I entered a complaint with the NASD regarding this matter.
http://www.ragingbull.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CBQI&read=3505
However according to the transfer agent’s numbers on August 25, 2000 only about 259,217 cannot be accounted for an thus has to be the dilution factor of the filed 144. Sort shoots a hole in what he was told.

April 3, 2000 … I just got a call from the NASD.
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=13336987

April 7, 2000 (day after the 3100 share $3.00 walk down) I spoke with a market regulator from the NASD last week regarding CBQI / the regulator threw the last four or five 144's back at me. / The Reg. didn't seem interested to hear the specifics.
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=13330996

WDCO sold for the longest time this last week (first week in October) if you follow my commentary and now when it hit a buck got help from NITE, HILL, MASH & PGON. HILL single handily drop the ask down on 9,100 shares. Was this one of the tactics? Then when WDCO boxed it again MASH stepped on the Ask with him. Apparently, someone is tagged and the trading shows it.

Also when WDCO had it Boxed a 100 share call came out after every fill until he got help. Check the trading on Friday from 10:50 Am – 10:55 AM … that was proof of the stock call signals to me.

Anyway, though I am bored and have converted trading activity to a Bullfight it is exactly what it is to be honest. I follow the trading daily and post it as best as I can keep up with it for documented proof on line.

Also now do you see why I am attacked by every evil on the Internet and accused of every wrong doing in the world. You do not make posts like this and NOT take any heat by the types that live in this reality. (BYW I called it and I was right)

Gary Swancey

[Georgia Bard]

Well from my experience all these squaring up dates for monthly, quarterly and annually are probably easier done that most realize. One reason is OTC is unregulated and probably more unfiled paper exist with positions that anything. Also it is easy to just transfer papar around every 3 days.

I do not hold a lot of credence in those square dates.

Gary

[ihub_tutorial]

Interesting thought -

http://www.investorshub.com/beta/read_msg.asp?message_id=6885

FM

[Georgia Bard]

Good deal ... Site is impressive in its infancy. Gary

[ihub_tutorial]

Gary,

Sorry I missed the Live chat..

I was at my real work! LOL This has just be on the side up until now..I am actually going full time at this next week...

I'm still catching up with all the e-mails and PMs today..whhooo

FM

[ypsiCPA]

Gary - no. but welcome to iHub!

Steve

[Georgia Bard]

Fatt Join me in the live chat. I have some suggestions. Gary

[Georgia Bard]

Hi Fatt!!!! Just learned of this site .. I am sitting in the lounge of free chat. Did you see where OTCNN published my commnets on what is going on in the OTC Market?

Glad other I know are here...

Gary

[ihub_tutorial]

GB,

WAAAAAZZZZZZZUUUPPPPPPP

;-0

Ga Bard has arrived..now the party can start! wahoo

FM

[Georgia Bard]

Steve ... are you the same Steve I know from SI ... Gary

[ypsiCPA]

Matt -

I don't look for any changes. Herzog will operate as a subsidiary, under the direction of the present CEO (Buzzy Geduld). Note the acquisition hasn't closed yet, pending regulatory approvals.

Steve

[ihub_tutorial]

Steve,

With recent acquisition of HERZ by MER, do you think we will notice any "psycho patterns" differences in the way they trade as MMs?

Interesting thought.

FM

[ihub_tutorial]

http://www.otcnn.com/headlines.html?id=960907920

[ihub_tutorial]

Not sure.

But the reason I posted it is because it is supposedly a market without MARKET MAKERS.

Supposedly internet trading...from trader to trader. Sounds like it will be a big stock-only eBay to me

I'm very intrigued by the whole idea though.

Check it out when you get some free time.

Later,

FM

[ypsiCPA]

Matt,

I've heard of them, that's about it. Similar to Instinet?

Don't have time to spend on their website now...

Steve

[ihub_tutorial]

Steve,

Have you heard about this new system WAMEX is trying to pull off?

Suppost to be "Investors Independence Day" on July 4th when they launch. Lots of hoopla surrounding it.

Checked it out?

http://www.wamex.com

I am almost considering partnerning with them, but I want to do some research on the managment first.

FM

[ypsiCPA]

Herzog Heine Geduld to be bought by Merrill Lynch(!)

http://www.msnbc.com/p/cnbc/416551.asp?bt=cnbc

[Bernard Ng]

Steve,

I don't have any actual knowledge or proof, however from my experience, this won't help. The MMs have to make the market no matter how high you set the GTC order. If you set it real high, they can see it as well, they have their own game plan in any situation. There were times when I saw the stock's float was being owned, and in fact the whole OS was being held, and the MMs still whack it down... some of these stocks might come back, only after a long period of time and what I know is that they can pass shares to each others, and they don't need to cover every month or whatever time period people think they need to cover... law = no use. Forget about the law and follow the real game law is the only way to prosper in bb stocks.

Hope this helps.

signed,
Bernard

[ypsiCPA]

Matt (or anyone) -

A question came up on RB about the effectiveness of way above market limit sell orders to prevent your shares from being used for shorting purposes.

I know some have faith in this, others believe it to be an old wives' tale.

Do you have any actual knowledge?

Thanks,
Steve

[ihub_tutorial]

I just got asked this about Market Makers-

Question: Can Market Makers short OTCBB stock?
A: Yes, that's their job. IN order to keep an orderly and stable makret, they must SELL stock they don't own...When they get too far behind..and beging to look like they might lose on the deal..this is when they bring that baby back to earth..this is when people get ticked off.

Question: Can Americans short OTCBB?
A: Yes, if you have an offshore or Canadian acct.

Hope that helps.

FM

[Bernard Ng]

I have used the link a few times before, it works , though the content looks like off topic. Of course, if more people use the link, the better the effect on the target stock.

signed,
Bernard

signed,
Bernard

[ypsiCPA]

Bernard - Link refers to brokers. They are generally not the MMs. Though indirectly..if a complaint leads to abusive behavior by an MM, they would see some residual grief.

[Bernard Ng]

Filing A Customer Complaint

MMs will start to behave properly if we all use the following link:
http://www.nasdr.com/2150.htm

signed,
Bernard

[ypsiCPA]

SEC Says Wall Street Firms Are Mishandling Limit Orders
By Christopher H. Schmitt
Staff Reporter
5/4/00 8:30 PM ET
WASHINGTON -- Despite major stock market reforms in recent years, big Wall Street firms are mishandling key investor transactions, costing the public hundreds of millions of dollars a year, a Securities & Exchange Commission report suggested Thursday.

At issue is handling of investors' limit orders by Nasdaq market makers and trading firms at the New York Stock Exchange and other exchanges. Limit orders -- which have become a favorite tool of individual investors -- are instructions to buy and sell at specific prices.

Under the recent reforms, the interplay of limit order prices with prevailing market prices can produce better overall prices, reaping many millions for investors in cost savings or additional profit when they buy or sell. The reforms were aimed at getting investors better prices in general, and also reflected concern that Nasdaq market makers were colluding to prop up transaction costs borne by investors.

The criticism in the SEC report, based on a sample of unnamed Nasdaq and Exchange trading firms, was broad-brush: that firms often failed to display -- that is, integrate into their overall pricing -- proper sizes of limit orders; failed to display orders within 30 seconds, as required, and failed to re-route orders to another market that would display the price. It also found surveillance and enforcement of handling of limit orders to be weak.

SEC officials declined to estimate the cost of the noncompliance to investors across all stock trading. But additional trading costs pile up quickly -- a price difference of only 1/16th of a dollar on a 1,000-share order, for example, translates into an extra cost of $62.50.

If noncompliance is widespread across the industry, as the SEC report suggested, the cost to investors could well be hundreds of millions of dollars or more annually. And with U.S. stock ownership now broader than it has ever been, the burden reaches across all slices of the population.

"These findings are very troubling," said Lori Richards, director of the SEC's inspections and examinations office. "We're very concerned. This should be a wake-up call."

SEC Chairman Arthur Levitt called the results "a pattern of serious neglect among some market participants."

NYSE spokesman Ray Pellecchia defended the Big Board's limit order compliance as "very aggressive and comprehensive," but said the exchange will promptly review the report and make any necessary changes. A Nasdaq representative was unavailable for comment.

Spurred by the dismaying findings, the SEC will step up its efforts to monitor compliance at all firms, Richards said, and some firms examined thus far may find their cases referred to the SEC's enforcement division for investigation.

The SEC released the report in connection with a roundtable discussion among two dozen leading Wall Street executives on what's planned to be the next generation of reform based on limit orders.

Under so-called limit order transparency, trading firms will open their order books for individual stocks, allowing the investing public to see a fuller picture of the supply and demand for securities -- in particular, the number of shares buyers and sellers are willing to make available at particular prices.

With that more complete picture, investors could make more informed decisions about their trading strategies. Today, most trading firms keep that information to themselves.

"Limit orders have been absolutely integral to the empowerment of investors," Levitt said.

Roundtable participants generally agreed limit order transparency is an idea whose time has come, but indicated any changes will take awhile because of sticky implementation issues. One, for example: Will participation be mandatory, and if some players can opt out, doesn't that seriously compromise the very intent?

Despite the promise of additional reform, Thursday's SEC report underscored that Wall Street may have a long way to go to simply comply with existing rules, never mind adding new practices.

As reforms of recent years have encouraged investors to place limit orders, such orders have come to dominate trading. Today, limit orders constitute two-thirds of all orders on Nasdaq, and two-thirds of all system orders on the NYSE. Most quotes on the NYSE are set by limit orders, and Nasdaq "spreads" -- the difference between prices a dealer will buy and sell at, and one place where they earn their profit -- are narrower when set by limit orders.

The SEC acknowledged that limit order rules of recent years have improved prices. Nevertheless, the agency found specifically:


Not all limit order systems are fully automated and many Nasdaq market makers handle limit orders manually. When that happens, violations are frequent -- in the case of one Nasdaq firm, rules were violated in 92 percent of cases examined. "That's stunning," said the SEC's Richards.

Automated systems perform substantially better, but some are not programmed to properly comply with the rules.

Trading firms weren't even able to provide the basic information needed to ensure investors' limit orders were being properly handled -- the crucial first step in ensuring compliance.

Some firms don't even check to make sure rules are being followed.
The firms' failure to follow the rules hurts investors in three specific ways:


If limit orders aren't displayed, overall market prices will fail to adjust properly, and that could mean some of the orders end up never getting executed.

In general, buy prices remain too high and sell prices remain too low.

Investors who place "market orders" -- that is, orders to trade not at specific prices, but instead at whatever the prevailing price is -- end up paying more or getting less than they otherwise would have.
"By allowing all investors to become price-setters, limit orders improve the process of price discovery," said William Atkinson, the SEC's associate chief economist. "When displayed properly, they can increase competition."

© 2000 TheStreet.com, All Rights Reserved.

[ihub_tutorial]

I have a feeling this will become a very popular board.

There is so much discussion about MMs, this will serve as an incredible "reference" forum for new investors.

Great idea, Steve.